Lili welcomes Peter Shepherd back to TDQ! Peter is a coach, co-host of The Long and the Short Of It podcast, and the creator of Reveal Lab. They reflect on 2020 and discuss ways to bring our lessons and our joys into 2021.
Learn more about Reveal Lab! (Next session begins Jan. 11!)
Peter's website
Peter's instagram: @petershepherd_
The Long and the Short of It Podcast
The Long and the Short of It's instagram: @thelongandtheshortofitpodcast
The Five Minute Journal
The Five Minute Journal App
Alie B. Gorrie’s episode of TDQ
Alie B. Gorrie's episode of BASE
Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin Quiz
TDQ’s Website
Instagram: @thedreadedquestion
Lili’s instagram: @lili_torre
Email: thedreadedquestionpodcast@gmail.com
TDQ Peter Shepherd
[00:00:00] Lili Torre: Hello. And welcome back to The Dreaded Question podcast. I'm your host, Lili Torre, and I hope that you've been having a wonderful and safe holiday season, whatever that looks like for you this year. It's hard to believe that tomorrow is the last day of 2020. We made it folks. What a year it's been.
I figured a great way to end the year would be to bring back one of my favorite guests and noodlers, Peter Shepherd. If you haven't heard Peter's episode from season two, I'll link it in the show notes as well as his podcast with Jen Waldman, The Long and the Short of It.
Peter is an amazing coach based in Australia, who was introduced to my life by Jen Waldman. And I've said many times that this podcast would not exist without his six week course, Reveal Lab, which acted as the perfect incubation space for this project.
If you have a podcast or a project or anything at all that you're trying to nudge forward in the new year, I can't recommend Reveal Lab enough. And one of the best things about Reveal Lab is that [00:01:00] once you've taken it, you're eligible to join Peter's ongoing group, The Herd, which I've been a part of for well over a year at this point. It's an incredible group of change-makers sharing ideas, resources, and noodles, and supporting each other and staying accountable. It's an amazing group that I feel lucky to be part of.
If you want to know more about Reveal Lab, I'm linking more info in the show notes. The next session begins January 11th.
So without further ado, let's reflect on 2020 with Peter Shepherd.
So Peter Shepherd, what do you think will be your biggest takeaway from 2020?
Peter Shepherd: Ooh. A different question to kick off.
Lili Torre: Switching it up.
Peter Shepherd: I love it. So my biggest takeaway from 2020, I mean, I feel like I could write a book about how many takeaways there are. The word that comes to mind immediately, which is, I think there's a bit of recency bias, I've been thinking about this word a lot in the last few weeks and [00:02:00] it's simplicity or simplify.
Lili Torre: Ooh. Yeah.
Peter Shepherd: I think the opportunity, if we can call it that, that this pandemic has presented has been a chance to simplify. I think not only in the work that we do or the lives that we live, but like the food that we eat and the way that we approach our days, because our options have been limited in many ways, right across the globe.
And it's presented, I think an opportunity for us to, for me personally, to simplify a lot of things that I didn't even realize needed to be simplified until this year. And I was like, huh, cool, cool, cool. I made things far more complicated than I needed to. So even like a really minor example, you know, a commute to a coworking space is something that I just absorbed and assumed was part of my daily routine.
And now I don't, I haven't had to do that. And it's been like, Oh, actually that works quite well. That simplification of a routine works quite well. [00:03:00] So I think at the moment, my takeaway is to simplify.
Lili Torre: That's so interesting too, because I feel like before 2020 you would have been like, Oh, I have to have this coworking space. Like I there's no other option.
Peter Shepherd: Oh, a hundred percent.
Lili Torre: That's interesting.
Peter Shepherd: I think I've, I've probably in a podcast, said that it's a necessary investment for my work, for my mental health, for my sanity to separate the spaces between home and work and who knows in six months time, I might end up in the same position and have that same story, but I give myself permission to change my mind.
And that's, what's happened over the last, you know, six to nine months.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I wonder if you, if you will ever be able to go back to that story because you have such concrete evidence that that's not true now. And I mean, I know that those stories that we tell ourselves are very powerful, but I don't know, can they really conquer that much evidence that [00:04:00] you survived a year not having a coworking space? I don't know. I wonder if you can erase that.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, it's a good question. I, in the past I'd had, I think I tried a week and I was like, no, I tried a week of working from home. And that was before I ever went to a co-working space. And I was like, no way could I ever do this full time. One week is more than enough. I am going to an office. And so there you go. There's a fun story. That's blown itself right out of the water this year.
Lili Torre: Yeah. That's so interesting. Cause I was literally just thinking about why we try to lie to ourselves and how we managed to get away with it. Because you would think that like your own brain would be able to identify your own lies or these convoluted stories that we tell ourselves. And I think it's so fascinating that not only do we try to trick ourselves, but we succeed at it.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, [00:05:00] I feel like lies almost my reaction to that is like, Oh, I dunno if I lied to myself. I think based on the information I had at the time I made an assertion, which was my assertion is I'm going to work far better in a coworking space, based on the limited information I have, which was one week.
And so now I have far more information available to me based on, you know, nine months of working from home or almost 12 months. And so I'm able to tell myself a different story or make a different assertion based on new facts. So I don't know if I lied to myself other than I didn't have as much information as I have available now.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I agree with that. I definitely think... I will say, I do think sometimes those stories are straight up lies. I think like, especially... this will be interesting to touch base with you in, I don't know, a year or two and hear your thoughts because if you've gone back to telling yourself that story, that you have to have a coworking space, then at that point, it will definitely [00:06:00] be a lie, you know, that you can get by without it.
So we'll see. That'll be interesting. And I, I also was thinking while you were talking about simplifying, and this is only coming because I know this about you, but it's interesting too, to think of the ways that you, I don't want to say that you've complicated, which is the opposite of simplifying, I guess, but that you've invested more time and energy into things. So maybe not a complication, but more of an investment, like, I don't know, making coffee in the morning?
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. So I, I hear that. And I guess maybe this is, again, me lying to myself, it's like in one, on one hand it's been a, maybe a complication or, or has it been a simplification because I no longer have to go to a cafe and make and find a coffee shop and order the coffee. Not that that's super complicated.
[00:07:00] I've now chosen to dial in my coffee routine to a point where I can just go to the kitchen and make a fancy pour over coffee. So, I mean, I feel like I'm stretching into confirmation bias territory where I'm just trying to find patterns and fit them into my story, but hey, that's what we do.
Lili Torre: Yeah you're creating the story that you want to believe. I totally understand.
No, I mean, I definitely agree with that. So, so what we're talking about here probably should give a little context is a very fancy coffee situation with a very fancy pot and a scale? Right? And... lots of things to do early in the morning, but I suppose if the alternative is going to a coffee shop, I can see how that would be a simplification.
But it's not a Keurig, right where you just like pop in a little pod and that's it. But I, I actually think that that's really interesting. I feel like by simplifying certain areas of your life, it [00:08:00] leaves more space to invest more heavily, or I guess you could say complicate, but that's not really what I want to say, other areas of your life, which I think is... it's interesting to see where you utilize that extra space.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, well, it's interesting because the second word I would have said, if I was allowed to pick two words in terms of things I'm thinking about or learning in 2020, the other word is "calm." And I actually think they're very closely related. And I think the calm part comes in, especially when you talk about my morning coffee routine now is such a slow, intentional, mindful, calm practice.
As opposed to like rushing out the door to get to a cafe to line up to order a cup... like that to me is not calm. It's a little frantic. And I think maybe I'm blurring the lines between frantic and complicated, but I feel like there's a nice relationship between simple and calm.
Lili Torre: Oh, I definitely agree with that. You [00:09:00] know, that's making me think of something I haven't thought about in actual months that you might remember at the beginning of this year in February, I want to say I had this aha moment about leaving space. I think I was saying like leaving space for wrenches.
That like life was going to throw a wrench into things, and that I wasn't, I realized that I wasn't leaving enough space for those things to happen. And so, you know, it was filling up my days with so many things that then when something else got thrown at me, I would completely fall apart or, you know, feel like I couldn't handle it. And I remember posting about this in The Herd, the group that I'm part of with you, and saying that I wanted to commit to leaving room for wrenches in 2020, and then the pandemic happened, and the biggest wrench I [00:10:00] I've ever encountered came into my life and I was forced to have space for it.
And so I feel like, yeah, by, by simplifying your life and your day and your schedule and your routine and your circumstances, it does give you that sense of calm because there's space for wrenches.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, I would. And I think in the same way that you're talking about wrenches, I would say it's allowing slack in your schedule, allowing and intentionally, having space, white space, slack, wrenches, whatever you want to call it, but room for things to not go to plan because not only evidence by this year, but like as evidenced by basically every week, something doesn't quite go to plan in everyone's life.
So we need to be able to adapt and have space to adapt to your point. If, if you have no room to even contemplate what just changed, you just kind of spiral into this space of like, Oh crap, how am I going to get this done? This is one [00:11:00] other thing that I didn't plan for.
Lili Torre: Exactly. It's like, if you wear your tightest pants to Thanksgiving dinner, there's no room for all of the Turkey
Peter Shepherd: It's true. It's true. I mean, we don't have Thanksgiving down under, but I would apply that to Christmas dinner or Christmas lunch.
Lili Torre: Or pretty much any meal.
Peter Shepherd: Or any meal you gotta wear your lose pants. Yeah.
Lili Torre: I love that. Simplification and calm. Yeah. I do think that those will be legacies for a lot of people of, of 2020. I know there's obviously going to be a lot of difficult things and trauma to process as well for all of us, really. But I do think it's important to look at the things that you want to take with you into 2021.
And I think simplicity and calm are great things for all of us to take with us.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. And I guess in hearing you say that I hadn't [00:12:00] quite put this together, but it's in many ways it's taking those things forward is the inverse of what most of us have had this year. Most of us have had frantic situations because of changing circumstances. And most of us have probably complicated a bunch of things, especially initially when we were like, how do we adjust to this?
Things got more complicated before they got, you know, normalized or became even to a point where we could create calm. So yeah, I've, this is why I sort of flagged it could be recency bias. Cause I think if you asked me in April, I don't think I would have, I wouldn't have even known how to say simplicity and calm in April, you know?
Lili Torre: Well, it's like first we all had to react. We had to be reactive to the circumstances that were being thrown at us. But now that we have reacted and we've experienced that we can be more proactive with the things that we have learned and the ways in which we've grown, which is [00:13:00] amazing.
And this is making me think of...so when this episode comes out, it will be very nearly the new year. And a lot of people love to set new year's intentions and resolutions. And so thinking of your takeaways from 2020, I'm curious how you go about instilling some of these things into your life this year, but also every year, if you have ways that you uphold any sort of intentions or resolutions.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, I have a, I have a process or a practice that I've followed for the last few years, which I, you know, this is just before... we're a few weeks before the new year, but I plan on doing it again, unless something changes dramatically, which I don't think it will, but it involves a few steps and a few things really it's about reflecting on the year that was, and then like looking forward to how I might want to show up next year.
[00:14:00] So it's funny. I, I flagged two words and I think it's because approaching the end of the year, that's what I try and do for each year. I try and have. One, two or three words that are going to be, I guess, like guiding principles or just words to keep in mind for the entire year. I borrowed this practice off a dear, dear friend of mine, Mary Freer, who talks about... She actually has a list of like all of these beautiful words and encourages people to pick them- you can do it every month. You could do it every quarter I choose to do every year.
But I'm jumping ahead a little bit. The first point is the reflection. So I actually. And not, this is not gonna work for everyone, but I'll just share my quirky process. I have a Five Minute Journal that I complete every morning, I think I've told you that before. And I have, another notepad that I write a page in every morning. And so sometime in between Christmas and New Year, I take a few days off, like hopefully a lot of us, and I review and read through not necessarily every single word, but I skim through [00:15:00] the year that was, the things that I wrote down that I was grateful for, the things that I wrote down that I thought were awesome, the notes that I wrote in my notepad, just to try and pick up and remember what were the themes? What were the stories I was telling myself? What was I noticing? What was I grateful for? What was I observing? And then just capturing that.
And there's always themes. Like last year it was, you know, there was like a theme of, I'm really grateful for this delicious cup of coffee. Like a cup of coffee came up a hundred and something times or something ridiculous. Or, another one that comes up a lot is my collaboration with Jen Waldman and that came up a lot.
So it was like, okay, cool. So knowing the things that I'm grateful for last year, this is my reflection, then I can look at the projection, the looking forward of like, okay, cool. So I want to create the conditions to be able to do more collaborating with Jen. Enjoy more delicious coffee and make space for those really simple moments, because I recognize in my reflection that they're the things that brought me joy.
So it's basically: what brought me joy last year? [00:16:00] How do I focus more on that in the next year? And then knowing that what are some words that kind of guide that? And like I said, I usually pick two words. Sometimes... this year was three. And so at this point, calm and simplify are probably going to be my words unless something changes.
Lili Torre: Yeah, those are great words.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, I think so.
Lili Torre: I love that practice. I love that you specifically brought up that last year you mentioned coffee so much because that sort of answers what we were talking about before of like, why that is something that like filled the extra time and space in your day. And I, I did know that you use a Five Minute Journal because you have not only told me that you use them before, but you got me my first ever Five Minute Journal about a year ago. I think.
Peter Shepherd: I guess it was a year ago. Yeah.
Lili Torre: Crazy and I'm still doing it. I'm still loving it. You also told me about an app called Streaks, which [00:17:00] I am going to link in the show notes as well, because I'm still using Streaks and loving it. It's a great app. And especially for anybody who is going to have new year's resolutions. It's excellent.
But something that I noticed in my Five Minute Journal as I, I completed one a little while ago and I was flipping through. It was really interesting to see the shift in the things that I was grateful for. Cause you write three things that you're grateful for every day.
The shift, once the pandemic hit, it was like pre pandemic I never, I don't think once wrote down my health and then post pandemic, it was like my health almost every single day. And the things that are, so... again, I think it kind of goes back to that idea of simplification because it's kind of the most basic thing to be grateful for. And it's the easiest thing to just never write about.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. And it's also one of the few things that is actually within our control is we can, we can [00:18:00] take steps and measures and create habits to maximize the likelihood that we're going to stay healthy. We can't guarantee, but we can definitely maximize the likelihood. So, yeah.
Lili Torre: Yeah, that is interesting. It's like both very much within our control and not at the same time, but that's really interesting to me. It's... It's another potential for a wrench that like, you can do everything in your power to be healthy, to set yourself up for success.
But at the end of the day, you have to just be okay with and acknowledge the fact that like wrenches get thrown in and you can do everything right. And still get sick.
Peter Shepherd: I think it's, it's something that I know you and I have spoken about quite a bit is about unattaching ourselves from outcomes. So whether it's making a decision or focusing on something like my health and fitness, there is a really important distinction to make, which is that outcomes are [00:19:00] usually, very often outside our control.
Now what is within our control is to do everything in our power in order to head towards. What we hope might be an outcome. So I'm trying to think of an example. So I might want to, you know, set a record for my open water, 2K swimming time, trial. 2K is about a mile and a half, I think. And so I could do everything in my power to try and train myself up, to get to a position where I'm ready to try and get to that outcome.
But then it might be a terrible day. I might get a shoulder injury. I might, you know, get really tired, like anything could happen that would restrict my ability to get to that outcome. So all I can do is focus on the things that I have in my control to hopefully maximize the likelihood of getting to that outcome. But you can never guarantee.
Lili Torre: Yeah. And especially when you're thinking of, you know, so many people love to set new year's resolutions. And when you're thinking of [00:20:00] that, I think that it's so important to remember that you don't necessarily have control over the outcome, but what do you want to be working towards every day? Like do you, because in order to, to set that record, you're going to have to be in the water every day.
You're going to have to be swimming distances. Like, do you enjoy that? Do you like that? Is that how you like to exercise? Are you good at holding your breath? Do you want to be good at holding your breath? Like those types of things, but if you find that unpleasant then like, why are you going to spend all your time doing that? You don't even have control over if you can achieve that outcome necessarily.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, it sounds really simple, but I think it's, it's often underrated, which is the goals, the resolutions, whatever you want to call them, the postures that we show up with should be within our control. Because otherwise we're setting ourselves up for failure, ultimately. So in that example that you mentioned, it might be that the goal was actually to swim in the ocean every single day, or, you know, to, do my shoulder stretches once a day or whatever, you're using a terrible example, but you know [00:21:00] what I mean?
The point is like a really bad resolution is get fit. Cause like that that's a, that that is an outcome of any, like, it could be an outcome of any number of possible things that you do. So we need to think about what are the things that I can actually do that are within my control that might head me towards that outcome?
Lili Torre: Yes, absolutely. Are you a resolution setter?
Peter Shepherd: I am. Yeah. So I have my words, like I mentioned. And then under the words I sort of have, what are the, what are the things within my control, the little goals that would fit within that, that I want to work towards.
So I had a few this year that no longer were possible. One of them was, you know, go overseas twice because, I recognized in my last year's reflection, there was a lot of gratitude for the ability to travel and seeing new places and meeting new people, coming to New York, those kinds of things. So that like one example of the start of this year was I want to go overseas at least twice. Now, [00:22:00] obviously that didn't happen, but that's okay. So I can let that one go.
And I think I had, I want to say I had four or five that were underneath the words. So it's like, I have a one pager basically.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I like that. Do you keep it somewhere where you can see it or is really the activity writing it.
Peter Shepherd: It's actually one of my bookmarks in Google Chrome is, it's called 2020, and I click on it... I don't know every now and then I would say maybe once every couple of weeks, just to like, check in, see how it's going. I remember what's on there, but sometimes I just go into it to sort of remind myself of what I wrote down, what I was working towards.
Lili Torre: Yeah, this year I did my first ever attempt sort of at a vision board? A mutual friend of ours and TDQ guest Alie B. Gorrie hosted a little vision board party at the beginning of the year. And I had never done a vision board before. And I didn't know if I was totally into it, [00:23:00] but I went because Alie B. was there, and you can't say no.
So I ended up making it a calendar, so I like bought some random calendar. And then I was like, I don't think I'm going to put a vision board up on my wall, but I will put a calendar up. So I'll just kind of decorate it and put things that are important to me. And my word this year was, "brave" was my word for the year. And so I filled it with like quotes and thoughts and ideas about being brave.
And then I also was trying to manifest a French bulldog. And so I put a little picture of a French bulldog in the corner of every single month of the calendar. And I guess I'll go ahead and announce this on TDQ that, I did and in fact, manifest that French bulldog. And at the time we're recording this, I'm getting her in 10 days. Her name is [00:24:00] Olive, and she's amazing. So I don't know, I guess I'm a vision board person now.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, I love this. I love this. And I'm always mindful in talking about resolutions that like everyone has a slightly different relationship with them. I think if I was to really simplify one practice that I think would be really helpful, which I think is actually, if I really simplified mine, this is basically what I'm trying to do, which is look at the things that have brought you joy over the year. And then create space for more moments of that joy in the coming year.
So what are the things that brought you the most joy and happiness? Because ultimately I think what we're all chasing is some level of happiness, fulfillment, joy. So what are the things that brought you that, and then how might you create more of that moving forward?
That's really what I'm trying to do.
Lili Torre: Yeah, that's really what we're all trying to do. Part of what I love about that is that it's a direct reflection of the year that you just had. So it's not necessarily [00:25:00] trying to change anything. It's sort of circling back to where we started of like taking something with you into next year and making even more space for that.
Rather than what am I trying to change next year? What do I want to do differently? Which I think can definitely have its place, but, you know, using the example that you mentioned of like, I want to get fit next year, like I want to change my body next year. Like it's not as ...this is getting a little woo woo. But if, you can agree, perhaps that the universe brings you what you already are, then reflecting on the things that brought you joy and trying to bring those into the next year. Like that is a direct reflection of that. Bringing more of that into your future, rather than trying to change something which may or may not happen.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, I think of it as a "yes, and." It's like, yes, this is what went really well last year. And I'm going to build on that by focusing more on it this next year. I have a little bit of tension at the moment with a [00:26:00] lot of, there's a lot of, you know, some of them are in jest, but there's a lot of comments posts, social media, whatever about like, "Oh, let's just get rid of 2020. 2020 is the worst, like, hurry up and start 2021. Cause I'm ready to start again."
I'm kinda like, I mean, there's still going to be quite a bit of pandemic in 2021. Let's call that like, let's call that out. Call that in. And so how can we make it a "yes, and" as opposed to a dismissal of an entire year, and I'm going to start fresh in 2021, like I just, I think it's a "yes, and."
I think we have to look for the gifts. We have to look for the things that brought us joy and happiness and then create space for more of it.
Lili Torre: Yes, and if we're going back to the idea of being proactive versus reactive. If you throw out this whole year, then you don't even get to take the opportunity to take what you learned, what you were forced to learn in a reactive way, to an [00:27:00] extent in 2020, and build upon that in a proactive way in 2021, rather than just being like, "Let's just forget that whole year happened and pretend that we went straight from 2019 to 2021." Really would be a missed opportunity.
And all this talk of resolutions just has me thinking about a word that I know you and I both have an interesting relationship with, "accountability."
Peter and I are both. Well, Peter is definitely an Upholder, if you follow Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies framework, which I talk about a lot on this podcast. I am probably an upholder, but have gotten a different answer almost every time I've taken the quiz. So who's to say, but I feel like maybe I'm an Upholder. And what that means essentially is that Upholders respond equally to their own expectations of themselves as they do to other people's expectations or outer [00:28:00] expectation.
And I feel like that gives Upholders sort of a complicated relationship with accountability because we hold ourselves so accountable that sometimes having external accountability either feels like added pressure on something that you're like, I've already got this, or feels like just adding more to your plate that you didn't necessarily want on it.
But in some of our recent conversations, we've both found that. We're actually being held accountable more often than we give ourselves credit for, or maybe like to think that we are. And I'm curious if there are any ways that you build accountability into your practices for the following year.
Peter Shepherd: I think I probably touched on one, which is the Google Doc one pager that I have as a, as a favorite in my Google Chrome, because yeah, like you described, I, I guess one of the reasons I like resolutions or reflections and looking [00:29:00] at creating words is I'm an Upholder. So I I'm pretty good at upholding what I said I would uphold.
However, I do recognize that I need to remind myself of the things that I wanted to focus on or caption. So in a way, having this one pager as a, as a favorite is me keeping myself accountable. So I think there's definitely that.
I think you touched on another one, which is Streaks, the app, but just streaks as a concept, which is creating a habit or a practice that you want to do every single day or three times a week or whatever the frequency is, and then tracking that.
And I heard Jerry Seinfeld, talk about this a lot when he was an up and coming standup comedian and he would, he would have a calendar, a big calendar printed up on the wall and he'd just do a cross every time that he wrote. So wrote jokes, he would just do a cross. And eventually, he talks about eventually you get to a point where it creates a chain and you just don't want to break the chain. So you [00:30:00] just keep doing it every single day. And that really resonated with me, so I try and have a habit or two. I I feel like there's a sweet spot. When you start tracking too many habits, it gets completely overwhelming and loses the point.
Lili Torre: Yes. As someone who started out, trying to track as many things as Streaks would allow you to do, which they don't allow you to do that many, which is good, but it was a way too much. I think I told you one time that I ended up staying up, like way past my bedtime, just being like I gotta finish all the Streaks and, yeah, it's definitely been better since I've pared it down to like four or five things.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. Yeah. I would say less than five is good. And so having that accountability and seeing that pattern as an Upholder, I get, I get immense joy out of like making sure that I've hit the streak. So, that's ways I'm keeping myself accountable.
And then I wouldn't explicitly say, this is my accountability structure. However, the collaborations [00:31:00] that I have with people like Jen Waldman, or people like you, that keeps me accountable knowing that I'm catching up with Lili every two weeks, or I'm catching up with Jen, you know, two or three times a week. We don't say let's catch up to keep each other accountable, but knowing that's in my calendar keeps me accountable.
Lili Torre: Yes. I totally agree with that. And you know, one of the reasons you and I have been talking about this so much is because, at least for me, I sort of had that aha moment with you that like our, our catch-ups every two weeks, it really is that external accountability and the group, The Herd that I'm part of with you, that group holds me accountable in ways I don't even realize just simply for the fact that I know that this group is, is there for me and is rooting for me.
And so I feel like for anyone who's maybe listening, who doesn't think that they love being held accountable, for me, it's more about this sense of community. And when I feel like I have a community and I [00:32:00] have a group that I'm part of, then I inherently feel more accountable and I feel like I'm more likely to follow through on things because yeah, there are people who are there for me who want me to succeed, who are there if I need help. And all I have to do is show up.
Peter Shepherd: Hmm. Yeah. People who are, I think, almost invested in your growth. And so that, that holds you to on some level to account to them because they're, they're trust- I'm trusting them, and they're trusting me to, to buy into the, the idea that we are all growing and working on things together. So I have to show up with that same posture, which is accountability.
Lili Torre: Yes, exactly. And I think you know, I'm really talking to myself here, but I'm hoping that this is resonating with someone else listening, because I really have been resistant to the word accountability for a long time. I think I think of group [00:33:00] projects in school where I felt like I was carrying the load for everyone else. And I didn't like that feeling.
And I feel like accountability partnerships often feel that way for me. And sometimes I think of accountability as, you know, being checked up on and I don't like that feeling either. And so I think for me, this reframe on accountability is really being, supported by a community. It has really helped me and makes me really grateful for the communities that I do have in my life. You know, for me, namely Jen Waldman Studio and the group that I do with you, The Herd are two of my biggest sources of accountability. And honestly, joy.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. I think the word joy is such a good one. Accountability, you know, accountability buddy... it feels a little transactional, I'm like "What? You know, what, if you had a friend who brought you joy."
[00:34:00] Lili Torre: Exactly. Yes. And I I think it's interesting, you know, accountability buddies. I was just talking to someone about this. For me, I think a successful accountability relationship either needs to have a deadline. So if you're going to have an accountability buddy, it's like for this one month, I'm working on this one thing and I specifically want this one person to be my partner, and we're going to work on these specific things, or it really just is better in a group when you have a variety of perspectives and people who can see things differently than you.
I mean, I've said this before on the podcast. One of the things I love about working with you is that because you're not a theater artist, you can use your Human Periscope to see things differently than I can see it and challenge some of my assumptions and give me ideas that I wouldn't have thought of. And most of the people I know wouldn't have thought of.
Peter Shepherd: Hmm. I appreciate that. I think the, the only other thing I would say on accountability [00:35:00] is because of what we prefaced this with, us being upholders. I feel like, I don't know if it's the minority, but I feel like we have a particular unique relationship with the word accountability.
I have, you know, I've worked with literally thousands of leaders and change makers from all corners of the globe. And so many of them, a very, very high percentage of them seek out a coach for what you described the external perspective, for sure. However, they also really, really value accountability, especially when accountability comes in the form of someone offering a perspective from a different, a different world or a different lens.
So I'm definitely not poo-pooing accountability because I recognize so many of my clients and I'm sure some of yours, they show up seeking a coach, not purely because of accountability, but in large part often, because it helps keep them accountable to the change they're working on internally. And if you go back to the Gretchen Rubin framework, the, the Obliger tendency is the largest percentage of the population, I think, so [00:36:00] that sort of checks out.
Lili Torre: Yeah, no, I'm really glad you said that because, I mean, I think for me, it's, it's almost like I've gained a new appreciation of accountability and what it actually means, but I do think it's really important to recognize that not everyone views, accountability the same way. So if, if you are an obliger, then yeah, having an accountability buddy might be the best thing for you. Especially if we're going back to these new year's resolutions, maybe that's the way that you're gonna get through this.
But I also think that we all can sort of take another look at what being held accountable means to us and the most productive ways we can go about doing that for ourselves.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. Agreed.
Lili Torre: So we've mentioned a few times the work that you do with a lot of Jen Waldman's students, you have The Herd, which I'm a part of that we've mentioned a few times, but you also have Reveal Lab, which is one of my favorite things I've ever done in my entire [00:37:00] life. It is great. Shameless plug because it's amazing. It was six of the most life-changing weeks of my life ever to this day.
It's just true, but the reason I'm bringing it up is because I know you worked with a lot of amazing artists in Reveal Lab this year and it must've been a really interesting perspective to see so many artists in a part of their lives, where they're questioning who they are and what they do. And I know you had a lot of changemakers in there who were pivoting their careers or starting parallel careers for themselves.
And I'm curious what some of the things were that you noticed as themes with these artists experiencing pivots.
Peter Shepherd: It's a great question. I think. The first thing I noticed, which was honestly quite hard to, to notice because of, you know, many of these people I'm working with, I [00:38:00] would consider friends and certainly friends of Jen and friends of me and really brilliant, smart, generous people.
And the first thing I think I noticed was the... well, it was different than my friend who was an accountant, for example, who lost his job. So my friend, the accountant lost his job. What I observed in a lot of the performing artists that I got to work with was they lost their identity. And that is a very, very, very different perspective to have to process than, "Oh, I lost my job as an accountant."
And so that was kind of jarring and heartbreaking honestly, to see people really struggling with, "Oh, that was my, that was my identity." And that was probably, that was especially early on. And then I guess the, the flip side of that, the really joyful part of it has been...
I think your podcast has done a really good job at this and you and I have spoken about it. And I've spoken to other, performing artists about it before of [00:39:00] trying to help people in your community see that the gifts that you have around creativity, especially around empathy, especially around generosity, especially. Are so in demand, so needed in so many different corners of corporate life. So many different corners of freelancer life, so many different corners of, you know, health and nutrition, like all of these different industries that would benefit so much from the gifts that you all have.
And what was pleasing, was it's almost like that went from theory to practice. Because of the circumstances, the unfortunate circumstances, you had a bunch of really generous people like, "Wow, I guess now is the time for me to really test that assertion."
And I saw some people start amazing businesses. I saw people create podcasts and deliver keynotes and training programs and get jobs in corporates and like all sorts of really [00:40:00] interesting pathways that I think in theory, we knew existed and yet not necessarily, or we didn't necessarily have the tension or the requirement or the, the urgency to put that into practice.
So that is, I think the, the really big overarching shift that I've noticed is like rolling up our sleeves, using our skills in other ways,
Lili Torre: Yes. I mean, obviously I love all of that so much because it's essentially the proof of concept of my podcast is that we can do other things and perhaps we should. And that what we have to offer is valuable.
And especially in a community of people... a lot of guests that I have on this podcast who are artists will say one of the things, especially before the pandemic, they would say one of the things that they were really proud of with their parallel career is just that they followed through on something and that a lot of [00:41:00] artists have a tendency to feel like they don't have a ton of follow through with all of their amazing ideas.
Which I think is in part I've said this before, I think that's in part because so many artists have so many amazing ideas and you can't follow through on all of them, but I think it's also because like you said, so many of us for so long have identified so strongly as artists, that there was a resistance to really following through on doing something that doesn't necessarily align with what you thought that meant.
And I think what I feel really excited about in this time and seeing all of these amazing pivots that people have done is... this is true in industries, and also geographically, the ways that artists have spread out into different areas of the country, into different business sectors, into different roles, even within the arts still, I think could [00:42:00] have a lot of impact in the long-term. I think it could create a lot of change.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah, I think that the change that you described, you can see it happening with the individuals. You can see it happening with the people they're working with. And the individual part is really interesting and exciting to me because if, and when, well, when, hopefully we get through to the other side of a pandemic where all of a sudden, you know, theater can open up again and there can be audiences and crowds and performances, you're going to get a bunch of really well-rounded human beings, artists that have been delivering these services over here or working in corporate over there. And they're going to bring that perspective back into the arts or they might not have ever left the arts, but they're gonna come into that, that new world with all new experiences, all new worldviews, all new ideas, which could create even more meaningful change within the industry itself.
So it's like there is potential change in all [00:43:00] sorts of different pockets based on that.
Lili Torre: Yes. I mean, it's no secret that the theater industry is antiquated and has a lot of issues. And there's a lot that could change. I mean, the fact that people still pre pandemic, at least, had to line up physically outside of these buildings in the cold is insane. And, you know, yeah, I hope that by artists taking this time to develop different perspectives, they'll come back with new innovations and ideas for the future of our industry, which so badly needs change.
Peter Shepherd: Yeah. I think that, yeah, that point is a really, really good one. It's just something I've observed also pre pandemic. There was a lot of really clear opportunities to improve the industry, and the initial reaction when there was a pandemic, it was like, "Oh my God, but that's the industry we love. And now we can't do it." And it was kind of [00:44:00] like, we forgot about all the things that we didn't like about the industry.
And so I, I think you're right. It's, there's an opportunity to revisit the antiquated nature of the seemingly archaic processes, like making people line up for hours and hours in the freezing cold now that everyone has experienced a more digital world or more remote world.
So I'm hopeful for that. I'm optimistic.
Lili Torre: Yeah, I am too. I would love to wrap up today with sort of the inverse of the question we started with, which is what are you most excited about for 2021?
Peter Shepherd: That's a good question. What am I most excited about for 2021? Well, I mean, on a personal level, I am moving house, my partner and I are moving house. And so I'm sure... and that's like coming up in the end of December. So that's going to create a bunch of really exciting possibilities as it always does when you move house. So on a personal level. Yeah. I'm excited for that.
[00:45:00] I am excited about a couple of projects that Jen and I are working on with the podcast. We have a few ideas that we're going to execute in the new year around episodes around workshops around other collaborations.
And I, my M.O. Is very much to do meaningful work with interesting people. Like I mentioned in the reflection that I did every single year, when I reflected in the last three years, collaborating with Jen Waldman has come up. So I am excited to do more of that.
I'm excited to do more with you, Lili Torre. I'm excited to see what we just described, hopefully unfold. What happens when a bunch of really brilliant artists and creatives get to, hopefully at some point during 2021, re-engage with theater in some way.
So lots of things to be excited from a personal front, from a professional front. Yeah.
Lili Torre: Yes. I love all of that. That's all very exciting. I will definitely be [00:46:00] keeping TDQ's listeners posted on all of your amazing collaborations with Jen. TDQ loves Jen Waldman and Peter Shepherd, so that's pretty exciting.
And yeah, I mean, I just have to say in my Five Minute Journal, when I flip back through it, there are many, many days where I am grateful for Peter Shepherd and I am just eternally grateful that you came into my life. You've always had such a great impact on me. And I'm very thankful for you and for you taking your time today to chat with me.
Peter Shepherd: Too kind, Lili Torre. Thank you so much for having me.
Lili Torre: I just love chatting with Pete. I'll admit I've always been a bit cynical about new year's resolutions and such, and have never really had much of an end of year reflection practice, but the way that Peter talked about it in today's episode actually got me really jazzed about it.
We have so much to learn from this difficult year and it definitely forced us to zero in on the small things that bring us joy. So let's all leave more room for those things in [00:47:00] 2021.
If you're interested in Reveal Lab, the next session starts January 11th, so make sure you scroll down to the show notes to find the link to learn more. And feel free to send me an email if you have any questions, because I truly can't recommend it enough.
Thank you so much for sticking with me and TDQ during 2020. It was a rollercoaster of a year for sure, but some truly amazing things have come out of it, and I'm grateful to have been on the journey with you. I'm Lili Torre and this has been The Dreaded Question.