Lili chats with Michael Wessells, actor, lyricist, and creator & co-host of My Best Friend's Journal podcast. They discuss moving to new cities, the joys (and struggles) that comes with creating your own podcast, and how Michael is currently viewing his theatrical career.
My Best Friend's Journal on Apple Podcasts
My Best Friend's Journal on instagram: @mbfjpodcast
My Best Friend's Journal website
Michael's instagram: @mikeywess
10K Dollar Day Podcast
Seth Godin's altMBA
The journals Michael has used:
The first journal he used
The one he uses now
The one he wants next
TDQ’s Website
Instagram: @thedreadedquestion
Lili’s instagram: @lili_torre
Email: thedreadedquestionpodcast@gmail.com
TDQ Michael Wessells
[00:00:00] Lili Torre: Hello, and welcome back to The Dreaded Question podcast. I'm your host, Lili Torre, and today I have a confession to make: over the past few months, I haven't been listening to nearly as many podcasts. And the podcasts I have been listening to have been almost exclusively comedy podcasts, which pre-Corona wasn't really a category I frequented all that much.
I think we've all really needed some good laughs in this time, and if you haven't given comedy podcasts much of a chance, I highly recommend trying them out. You already know a favorite of mine is the 10K Dollar Day podcast with co-host Lulu Picart, who was a guest on last season of TDQ. But one of my other favorite podcasts of all time is My Best Friend's Journal, which is co-hosted by today's guest, the charming and hilarious Michael Wessells.
Michael and I met a few years ago when we were both New York City actors working in the restaurant industry just before TDQ was born. We started our podcasts around the same time, and he's been [00:01:00] such a great partner for me to check in with from time to time, and listening to his podcast has brought me so much joy.
On My Best Friend's Journal, Michael gives his journal to his best friend Cam to read aloud and discuss. Michael keeps a daily journal and has done so for several years, so his journal entries are filled with wild memories, hilarious hi-jinks, and some pretty personal insight.
Today, Michael and I discuss our recent moves to new cities, truly, I don't know why Michael and I tend to do so many things at the same time, how he's currently viewing his theatrical career, and of course, we delve deep into all things, My Best Friend's Journal.
So let's find out what Michael Wessells is up to.
So, Michael Wessells, what are you up to?
Michael Wessells: Oh, my goodness. Well, that question will be different on any day, any given day, because am up to a lot of things, which is great!
So I just moved to Philadelphia a couple months ago from California. And so much of my life has been about just getting [00:02:00] myself settled, but what has been nice is that when you move to a new place, you have to kind of create new routines and find, you know, your priorities. Especially, I just moved into my own place for the first time I'm living alone, which is like, it feels so good. It is so much just freedom. I feel independent to like, do whatever. So I get to really prioritize what's important for me. And that said... that's a lot of things.
My week is generally shaped by my own podcast, My Best Friend's Journal, we, have kind of a production schedule to follow, and that has like driven my schedule for the last year and a half or so. You know how it goes creating these podcasts...
Lili Torre: Oh, yes.
Michael Wessells: It's a lot of work. So then I kind of start there and then start, you know, penciling in from there. And I've been very lucky, I feel...
So the podcast has kind of opened a bunch of doors that I didn't really expect. My favorite thing about it has always been that like, I get to do whatever I want and I [00:03:00] it's like the only creative avenue where I really feel that way.
I've, you know, when you're in a play or even when you're directing have a certain structure to follow, those limitations to what you are doing. And I'm creating the structure as I go for my show, which means I get to include all my favorite things.
I remember saying... a friend of mine forever ago, we were just like bantering and having a great time. And I was like, "God, what do I do with this skill? This is fun. How do I like make this something?" And then, you know, years later the podcast and it just like, I, I get to sing. I get to joke. I get to like write, but then I also get to be off the cuff. It's everything I want all wrapped up in a beautiful little, I don't know. Self-made production.
Lili Torre: I love that. And it's so true. You're absolutely right. You know, artists, or I should say interpretive artists like actors, don't always get the opportunity to really flex their creative muscles. What we do as actors is very creative, but we're not creative artists. We're interpreting other people's [00:04:00] work.
And so having the opportunity to create something that is entirely your own and can grow and change with you is so rewarding. And I love that you're finding that and that you're enjoying that.
Michael Wessells: Yeah. And it's, you know, it, it brings stresses as well because there's no... you are responsible for a hundred percent of it. but I... it's just so valuable. It just, it just means so much to me to be able to have created that opportunity for myself.
So now that's my like day-to-day and that's been part of like the fabric of what I do for the last year and a half.
And it is so like routine that I'm also now seeking other creative things. That's just like a given of course the podcast, but then I'm like, well, what else? And I kind of. I feel like my whole life, I kind of, walk around with pockets of seeds and I just kind of scatter them everywhere I go. I'm just always throwing the seeds everywhere, and like a bunch of them I forget about, cause I've got kind of a squirrel brain, but then like some of them that I'm more interested in, I might go, you know, water or some of them, I forget to water, but they pop up and I just see [00:05:00] them and that's like... that's how I feel about just every friend I make, every restaurant at work in, every, every part of every day is just scattering seeds. And sometimes those like bear fruits that I get to enjoy.
So from the podcast, a friend of mine that I worked with at a restaurant in New York, a bunch of years ago, it was listening to it and loved it. And he is a writer and he was working on a new project, and he needed a lyricist and he was like, "I think this is right up your alley." And I was like doing my little happy dance because I've wanted to write lyrics for so long. And I've like, I've done it for like my own things, but never...a lyricist needs a partner, I feel.
And so he got me working on this project and it was so fun. It was like my like fun relief from podcast editing, which is also fun, but a different kind of fun, you know what I mean?
Lili Torre: Yes, definitely.
Michael Wessells: And, And it was great. And we worked together so well and now we've kind of formed this partnership and I'm... he just started me on another project of his, and I'm like, thrilled to get paid to do something I've been dying to do.
And I feel like that kind of thing has happened to me over and over and over. [00:06:00] It's always a friend I met somewhere or someone who saw this random thing. And I don't know, I've, I've been chasing the joy. I'm feeling very, grateful and lucky in a very horrifying world right now. It's like a strange juxtaposition, you know?
Lili Torre: Yes. I feel like that's actually come up with a lot of guests recently is the sort of conflicting feeling of gratitude and joy and inspiration, and maybe also like guilt and weirdly shame around being okay, and doing well and thriving in a very scary, weird, upsetting, distressing time.
Yeah, it's a really interesting and difficult balance and set of emotions to negotiate for sure. But I think it sounds like you are up to amazing things. There's so much to unpack and... I mean, I just love everything that you've said so far. I love this idea of like [00:07:00] scattering seeds and allowing them to be what they will be and all of these creative opportunities that have come up for you, including like literal real creation of creating something new.
And I think that's incredibly inspiring. So just going kind of thing by thing. I think I want to start with Philly. What triggered the move to Philly from California?
Michael Wessells: Well when I first... so I moved to California from New York a few years ago. My two best friends were moving out there and they were like, do you want to come? And I was like, of course! You know, like follow the fun! When am I going to have this opportunity again? So I did and I loved it, but I always knew that I'm an East Coaster and that had a time limit on it. I didn't know what the time limit was, but I knew I would know.
And then the pandemic kind of helped everyone figure out what their priorities were, including myself. So much happened with my co-host of my podcast. He was making plans as well, that all got derailed from the pandemic and through all that we figured out that we're going to have [00:08:00] to learn to record remotely.
Once I did that, once we had a successful. recording session without being in the same room, I was like, "Oh, this one thing that has really been my tether in California, can be done from anywhere." And then I started thinking, "Well, where do I want to be?"
I was, going to do a show this summer in upstate New York, and that got canceled, of course, because... I don't know if you know, so like, 2020 some stuff happened....
But anyway, I like, so I was bummed that it was canceled, but I was more bummed, I think, that I didn't have the excuse to go back East. And I was like, "Ah, okay, well, I can make that happen for myself. I don't need to wait for the show to do that for me."
But then I was like, all right, well, I know two things for sure. And that's that I want to live in a city and I want to live alone. And I had lived in New York city for many years and I love New York. I grew up in upstate, so it was always kind of the obvious easy solution for an actor. But I was like, I don't, I don't want to live in New York right now in a pandemic. I don't want to, I can't afford [00:09:00] to live alone in New York.
And then I remembered, I don't know how it happened, but someone, someone brought up Philly and I was like, "Oh yeah, duh!" It just like... there was no thinking. Once, once that idea entered my mind, I was like, yeah, I'm moving to Philly.
I lived here in 2012/13 for a little bit. I had come for a show and then one thing led to another and I was here for a year as they do. And I loved it so much. I like only have good things to say about Philly. And I just remember this feeling of community and, and like really inspiring theater and inclusiveness and that... you know, we romanticize all of our memories, but I do, you know...
My show is about looking through my old journals and as we're going through my Philly time, I was like, every entry was, "Love this city. Love this town. Love these people. Love this and that." And I was like, "Oh, those are well founded memories. I did love it." And so as soon as that came back to my awareness, I was like, "Okay, so I'm moving to Philly." And then I lucked [00:10:00] out and found a great place and just made it happen.
Lili Torre: Wow.
Michael Wessells: But I hear that you might be making a move yourself!
Lili Torre: Yes, I did. tease you with that information right before we started recording. And then I was like, but anyway, let's start.
Michael Wessells: Dying to know, please let me and your people all in on the on the secret.
Lili Torre: Yes. Well, you know, I was so interested to hear more about what triggered your move specifically to Philly, because that was so much of what I was going through. You know, I, I determined that I was ready to leave New York... Somewhat easily, like that decision wasn't really the hard part, but I realized I was sort of hiding from that reality because I was so intimidated by the idea of where to move.
You know, I wasn't particularly interested in moving to my hometown. I wasn't interested in moving to my husband's hometown. And so it just kind of became this [00:11:00] weird limbo where I was like, I know I don't want to live here, but I don't know where to go. And so I, did a program this summer called the altMBA, and I did a prompt in that program that was centered around decision-making. And I actually used that prompt to decide whether or not I was ready to leave New York.
And part of what helped me determine that was I boiled down like "What is a place that you live in for? What's the purpose of the place that you live in?" And I boiled it down to opportunity and something that you said community. So then once I realized that for me right now, New York really doesn't have those things because you know, my community is really gone. So many people have left, and I'm in Queens, so even my friends who are still in Manhattan, I haven't been in Midtown since March cause I haven't taken the subway.
So. It's just crazy. And then obviously [00:12:00] opportunity at the moment is not particularly abundant. And so then the question became, "Okay, like where is it that might have those things for, for me and for my husband?" And we settled on Kansas City, which I know it's crazy saying it out loud, I'm like, it seems so random, but...
Michael Wessells: Everything is random. It's wonderful. I want to know exactly why, but like that's thrilling. Sorry, go on.
Lili Torre: Thank you, but you're right. It is all random. And it is all like, you know, earlier you were talking about just doing whatever you want and then not letting you know anything hold you back right now, because there's nothing that's tying us to any one place. And I don't know what to me, Kansas City just really felt like it was... as woo-woo as a sound, sort of like calling to me.
And like, I started seeing things and hearing things about Kansas City everywhere I went. Like a few blocks from my apartment, I noticed for the first time there was one of [00:13:00] those... do you know those like wooden arrows that there'll be like a little sign with a bunch of wooden arrows that says like points-
Michael Wessells: Yes.
Lili Torre: Points in a direction and says like Las Vegas, like X number of miles. Well, there was one that said Kansas City specifically, like
Michael Wessells: I have never seen a Kansas City one that is very random.
Lili Torre: Neither had I, it was so crazy and I just started seeing it everywhere. And I realized that, you know, between the two of us, between my husband and I, we actually know a lot of Kansas City actors. I feel like a lot of the contracts we've done regionally have had amazing Kansas City actors in them. And there are a lot of great theaters there, which of course are not operating right now, but eventually, may.
Michael Wessells: Yeah.
Lili Torre: And I started thinking about how a hope that I really have for this time. And sort of the aftermath of all of this is that if artists really do start leaving some of these hubs, like New York and maybe Los Angeles and [00:14:00] moving into other regions and other areas that we can spread art and creativity to places of the country that really need it.
Michael Wessells: Yes. Yes. So much. Yes. Keep going.
Lili Torre: Okay, glad you're on this train with me. We'll do it together. We'll change the world. I just feel like keeping art and creativity and stories confined to the coasts and to these sort of, you know, big city centers, isn't really doing as much to create waves of change in the rest of our country. And I think that that could be a really magical impact that all of this has.
Michael Wessells: Yeah, you're so right. It's I mean, there are limitations that we've put on having the hot spots of theater be on these coasts and there's, you know, there's a million regional theaters we all run into every summer that are all over the place, but they, you know, they, they dry up as the year progresses outside of the summer because everyone goes back to New York.
But that's like, one of the things I love about Philly are these, like these, the theater community is amazing because [00:15:00] any, any city that has artists in it creates a community and that's, as soon as you, I don't know, there's something beautiful about, supporting each other in a smaller setting that you just kind of can't get in New York, like...
In New York, you're so often, not a hundred percent of the time, but very often you're auditioning for Broadway or you're auditioning to leave town, you are not auditioning for, like a small community New York thing. It doesn't, it's not just not the nature of New York City, but that's so flipped on its head anywhere else.
So when you go to Kansas City, you might find that there's like, I don't know, 200 theater makers that are all like sharing ideas and supporting each other's creative works. And it is A. easier to get yourself into that kind of community, to be like a member of it, to participate and to add your voice and to support when needed and B. it's more opportunity like you can... there's more for everyone if we spread theater out across everywhere. I'm I'm thrilled. I can't wait to see what you end up doing over there.
Lili Torre: Aww, thank you. I mean, I feel the same way. I can't wait to [00:16:00] hear more about your life in Philly as it progresses and you know, I'm, I'm proud of you for taking such a huge leap, especially after having made a big cross-country move just a few years ago, You know what though? Like, why not?
You're so right like, this is the time and it seems like your time in California was fruitful. And for something like that's where your podcast was born and you know, it's like a baby, you were able to see it through its first couple of years there. And like now it's ready, it will survive you being further away.
Michael Wessells: Yeah. A hundred percent. And I feel that way about just about any decision we make. Like every, no matter what we do, where we go at all is part of our story. And as creators, if it's part of our story, it's productive, it's exciting. Like it can be anything. I mean, we've all done some like Podunk theater at places that we thought we'd never want to resurrect in our mind, but it becomes it's part of who we are. It's part of our journey, which, you [00:17:00] know, translates to part of our work. And it's, I dunno, there's so much value in just. Enjoying what you've got right in front of you.
Lili Torre: Oh, that's so true. Yeah. I really think that it's going to be interesting to see where a lot of artists end up after all of this, and the other thing that I keep thinking about and telling myself is: if I don't like it and I want to come back, I can always come back or move somewhere else.
But you never know until you try.
Michael Wessells: One of the things that thrills me about living in a smaller-than-New-York City, is that I am excited for the idea of making theater, my survival job.
Lili Torre: Oo. Tell me more.
Michael Wessells: Well, I mean, that's, you know, there's a lot of extenuating circumstances and involves actually getting work and actually having theaters open to work for. But assuming those things can happen. Part of the reason I loved Philly was I was having luck. I was, you know, one thing led to another, I was doing fun stuff, [00:18:00] I was seeing amazing theater and I was like, I felt welcome in the community. So I felt like I might have a opportunity to go rekindle some of those relationships and jump back in.
And I. As I'm thinking this and working on my podcast and I'm starting to work on someone else's podcast and doing creative and endeavors all over the place. I'm like, I love what I'm doing. And like you said, my, my podcast is my baby. Like yours is probably yours and it will continue to be my baby, but you know, just like human babies, parents have to like do other things as well to keep themselves sane.
And I would love nothing more than being able to go do my show at night, have that be my survival job and then continue ma- I mean... obviously, I don't know. It's, I'm very freelance right now, so my money, it comes from like all different little bits of little corners of the space, but theater could be a big chunk of that.
And I, I just know, I never really, it took a while to realize that I never was like dreaming of Broadway. I like look through all my old writing. And I'm like, I never once, I mean, I write [00:19:00] what I had to eat. I write like what hurt that day? What was exciting? I never, not once in my journals wrote, I want to be on Broadway. I like...
Lili Torre: wow.
Michael Wessells: I don't think I do. It's a beast I'm not interested in, in confronting. I want to do theater and I want to have fun. I want to act, I want to sing, but that is not contingent on being on Broadway. And I was like, great, wonderful. So then don't, I mean, I never really have put all my effort in being on Broadway, which is, you know, why I moved to California.
But I don't need to feel pressure to make theater my, you know, one and only fire. I'm... it's there. Cause I love it, but I, you know, I can, I can love it at night and then come do something else I love during the day, I'm... the idea is, you know, it's a work in progress, but I'll let you know how it plays out.
Whether or not it can be a survival job.
Lili Torre: I'm going to be very curious to hear more about this, because I've never really thought about it that way. I talk a lot on this podcast about one [00:20:00] of the amazing things about a parallel career or a parallel pursuit, being that it gives you that freedom where you're not so miserable in your survival job life, that you're willing to accept any theater gig that comes along just because you can't stand what you're currently doing.
It gives you the freedom to, to say, "I'm not really interested in that show and I don't really need that. I have work that supports me financially and fulfills me. And so I'm really okay." And so this idea that that theater can sort of fill that gap or act as, you know, a, a financial boost potentially, and as another source of fulfillment, but not like the main thing that's keeping you afloat is, is really interesting.
And I'd be curious. Yeah. Like how that ends up being sort of categorized.
Michael Wessells: I know it's a strange, like, as you're saying back to me, that sounds a little odd, but I think like it works for me because I, I [00:21:00] already am lucky enough to have other creative things. It works because I have a community that I think will let me in. And it works because I might be willing to, you know, if I'm going to treat it as a parallel, as a survival job, then it might, I might need to say like, "This is not going to be the most stunning show I've ever been in my life, but I'm going to get to work with some fun people. I'm going to get to do fun things."
Maybe it's. I mean, I don't know. I feel so like blasphemous to say that I would happily accept some theater that isn't like life-changing art, but sometimes it's fun to just kind of bounce around on stage, even if it's not like the most groundbreaking theater in the world.
And that's, I think that is kind of what I mean by survival that I'm willing to take that for what a good balance of a paycheck and having fun. I would much rather do that than pretty much anything else. As far as surviving goes.
Lili Torre: Yes. Ooh, this is really juicy. And I definitely, as you continue to play some of this out, we're going to have to have you back on and talk about it more because you might be [00:22:00] creating like a whole other job category in the way that I categorize jobs. So I'm really excited to come up with that together down the road.
Michael Wessells: I think it works in a, it could work in this new, this brave new world, where we're all spreading theater across the country. Maybe it doesn't work in New York, but perhaps in our new, in our new structure, it could. It could be something
Lili Torre: Exactly you're so right. It's going to be a whole new world with lots of new job categories. So I'm looking forward to that.
Okay. So we've been talking for like a while now, and we still haven't talked about what we're here to talk about. So, let's stop keeping the people waiting and talk about one of my favorite podcasts ever, My Best Friend's Journal.
Michael Wessells: That's very sweet of you to say, It is, you know, I've, I've kind of dropped it in each thing I've talked about because it's, so it is so intertwined with my life. It's a very, it's very meta to... I especially feel it when I'm writing in my current journal about editing my podcast [00:23:00] about my former journals.
You know how they say, that memory is like a game of telephone? Yeah, every time you, every time you rethink of a memory, it kind of alters a little bit. And then you remember the last time you remembered it and so on and so forth. I'm now wondering like what I'm doing to my own memories, having regurgitated them so many times and having like filtered them into so many different, outlets.
It's... that's for my therapist to figure out.
Lili Torre: But it's fascinating because you also have the concrete, like written proof of what that memory actually was. So. It's like, you're the more you're talking about it, the more you're changing it, but you will always have the proof of how it originally was. That's crazy.
Michael Wessells: Yeah. It's, it's a very strange thing. So basically the show... I finished a five-year journal, a few years ago and I was so proud of that, cause I honestly very rarely can follow through that deeply on something. and I was, I was proud of myself and what it was, and I knew for a while that I wanted to do something with it, but I didn't know what, and I was thinking of all the ways I can be [00:24:00] creative.
I was like, "Well, is this a cabaret? Is this like a book of essays? Is this a YouTube something?" And then my current cohost, best friend Cam, said he was like, "It's a podcast." And I was like, "You are a hundred percent right!"
And so we kind of fleshed it out. And we, we already had, you know, a great time, every time we caught up on the phone or good banter with each other. And it just seemed so logical to translate that into a podcast.
You know, we kind of, it grew as it went and it's still growing. It grows as it goes, but it's, we've kind of flushed out this structure where we start with like a 15 minute catch up, what's going on in the world, silly things, any stories we want to talk about. And then Cam grabs my journal and starts to just read it without any filter. He doesn't read it before. I don't read it before. And he just says aloud, whatever I wrote down and we talk about it, he makes fun of my spelling. We laugh, we laugh at the silly things. We like gawk at the crazy things. I [00:25:00] didn't know it would be public when I was writing it, obviously.
So a lot of it is things that I'm shocked that I wrote down, that he's shocked to see, but that's the fun it's. I mean, it's fun no matter... no matter if it's at the craziest day of my life or the most boring. Cause both things have like very interesting things about them. And like I was saying earlier, it's all part of our story, it's all part of how we create, no matter what you do or where you are, I don't know... it adds to your narrative. So it's important. Everything is important and fun,
Lili Torre: So you're reading journal entries from five years ago, right?
Michael Wessells: Yeah. So it's one of those like line of day ones. So you can see the entries, listed below one another. So he just goes through... sometimes he'll like jump ahead and look down the line just for his own entertainment. But generally we follow chronologically starting in 2013.
Lili Torre: I mean, it's such a great show and I just have to encourage everyone listening to us right now to go listen to it, because it is just full of joy and insight and hilarity, [00:26:00] but
Michael Wessells: That's very sweet of you also don't listen around children cause it's very, it is, adults only.
Lili Torre: Very, very fair warning. Yes. For sure. Not for in the car with mom and dad or babies. But it's definitely one to enjoy on your headphones.
And... I'm sure people ask you this all the time, like, how do you feel having your journal, your private journal entries read on a podcast for the world to hear?
Michael Wessells: Well, there's a couple safety nets in it. The first is that when we're recording it, it's just me and Cam. So I just feel like I'm with my friend. So I kind of forget that this is public. And the other is like, I get to edit it. So like, you know, people will hear if I've edited out a day because he goes through. So they'll know.
So if I do... I will say I've never edited anything journal juicy out. Sometimes I edit it down cause we kind of go off on a crazy tangent but it's just nice. It's comforting to know that if there was anything so catastrophic that I could not have out there, I could edit it out.
I haven't had to do [00:27:00] that because if anything like that existed in the journal, I think I'd have different. I dunno, I might have different things to worry about because I'm pretty much an open book about this stuff. I honestly, I forget that other people hear it as insane as that sounds because I make it and I publish it, but
Lili Torre: Right.
Michael Wessells: I'll be talking to someone and I'll bring something up like, "Oh yeah, I heard it in your show." They'll offer details that I have not offered them in real life. And I forget they already know these things or they'll mention something that I'm like, did we ever talk about this? Or they know a person that I'm, I it's so insane that so many people know all these facets of my life, but I trust most of them to not be like, "Hmm. So that time that you did this and insert most atrocious, awful thing that we read aloud..." like they don't want that uncomfortable moment either. I don't know. It's a mixed bag. It's exciting.
Lili Torre: Yes. I mean, I do know that there are moments where you warn your mother to turn off episodes. So that probably also helps, but
Michael Wessells: I do. And she said she was abiding by [00:28:00] my rules that she not listen at certain points, but she has not. She lied to me. She's heard it all, which is it's honestly freeing knowing that everyone you've ever known has access to everything you've ever thought is kind of just, wow, that sounds crazy like that, but it is, I have nothing to hide, which is lovely.
I feel very free to be myself. And that is the greatest gift of the show for sure.
Lili Torre: Yes. And, and that's really one of the things that's so successful about it is, you know, your ability to just sit with it. And also I think the fact that it's, that you're doing the show with someone you trust as much as Cam you know, your best friend, like that really helps because he can kind of tease you lovingly and it doesn't feel mean ever.
And it's just, it really gives it a great tone. And I know that also sometimes you, oftentimes you replace people's real names for their own protection, but I am. Yeah, I am curious though. Has anyone ever been like, "I heard you talk about me [00:29:00] on your podcast, even though you changed my name."
Michael Wessells: Not like that. I, so there's, I have one good friend who's here in Philly, that she is very aware of who she is, what character name she is. And she got a very boring name by accident. It just kind of like stumbled upon one day. And that was her only complaint. She was like, "That's the name I got?" but she doesn't...
She's very cool about it. She loves it and just, I mean, I've got nothing bad to say about her, so that's fine. But I do, especially with like guys I've dated or things that are going to come up in that way. There are, you know, stories and thoughts that people who formerly dated people have about those people. And, I know some of them have listened and some of them have reached out before I got to their stories.
And so knowing that they're out there is like, kind of, it's a strange dilemma. I'm like, well, I can't start, can start backing off now, but also I don't want to like say anything that's... I really, really try to [00:30:00] make sure everything is with like a, a good heart and with kindness, like not every moment is a kind moment, but like, I can look at it with kind eyes now, you know?
So we try and keep it light and anything that I feel somebody would not want told about them. I, I make sure to, you know, hide them and not just like I had one friend, sorry, does anyone do this? I'm like, no, except for all these examples.
One of my friends was like, "Hey, so I noticed a certain date is coming up in the journal. And that's a date when this thing happens. Would you mind not saying or doing anything about that?" And I was like, "Of course." A big rule for me is that it's important to, for Cam and I to tell our stories and not other people's. So if other people are... if they come in, if they're a character in my story, that's one thing.
But if I'm just telling... it's not fair for for me to tell their story, it's their's. And I don't think that's what people are there for. They can start a podcast of their own. So if I do need to bring in more details of their story to like aid with ours, I will always, always, always call them beforehand and [00:31:00] chat. And a lot of the time I will send them the episode and be like, this is how this came out. Are you okay with that? And it's fingers crossed all been good so far. I'm trying, I really just want no one to be hurt in this process.
Lili Torre: Of course, I think that's a really great boundary and a really great way to look at it that you're sharing your story and not someone else's. And I think that that really rings true and, and is actually what's really enjoyable about the podcast. If it, if it started becoming about like all of these different people's stories, then it's it, it would lose its focus and its charm. So I actually think that that's smart for quite a variety of reasons.
And yeah, I just think that it will be so interesting now because I've been thinking about this a lot, like looking back to when quarantine first started and when Coronavirus first started, like thinking back to things that we said or thought then.
You know, I had a friend who was like listening to her episode of TDQ from early on in quarantine and was like, "Listen to [00:32:00] my idiotic thoughts from then, like I knew nothing!" And I was thinking about how for you, it's going to be so interesting when you get to, cause you're still journaling now, when you get to like the start of Coronavirus and like where you'll be by the time you're actually talking about it on the podcast.
Michael Wessells: Yeah, it's, it's insane. And that, you know, it gets more and more meta as I write down things that I know could eventually come out. I'm like, well, I still want to journal. I want it to be honest. I want to know what the time of Corona was like.
And I try not to, uh, narrate from the future, you know? I want to, like, I want to be honest in this moment so that I can look back and be like, "Whoa, that's what that was like!" And I don't know, I am as anxious as you are to see where we are in hopefully not a very long time from now looking back on the time of this craziness.
Lili Torre: Yes. And I I'd love to hear more about journaling as a practice for you, because I mean, it's such a big part of this podcast, obviously, but you know, even when [00:33:00] you were first doing this daily journaling, like you didn't, you didn't start doing this with the idea that you were going to share this in a podcast.
You said you always figured you might do something with it, but you didn't know what form it would take. And I'm curious, what has come from this practice for you besides the podcast?
Michael Wessells: It is one of my greatest stress reliefs to make sure I am caught up in my journal. And that can be... There's a fine balance between, keeping up with it and not letting it be something to worry about. It's very important to me that every single day is documented, but I don't have to write every day.
And that is something that I have to like. Allow myself to feel okay about. And I, I have now, so sometimes it might be four days and I go back and I'm like, okay, well, it's easy enough to figure out what I was doing four days ago, much past that it gets, then it gets stressful because I got a lot of catching up to do.
But it helps organize me, it helps... like this is gonna [00:34:00] sound so corny, but kinda like defines the seasons of my life, you know what I mean? It's the way I'm writing, how much I'm writing, whether I'm using cursive or print or whether I'm writing really tiny or huge, it all is so telling. And it just... no matter what is happening, it is really, a relief for me.
It's, it honestly gets rid of some anxiety to just write and to know that I have, up to this point, documented everything I need to document. I don't know why, there's a lot of benefits to writing. What I'm describing is not necessarily what most people are thinking about when they're journaling, but it is just... it's so part of me now that it feels like a box I need to check off like every, every day or so.
Lili Torre: Yeah. And I, I love that the journal that you use is like a one sentence situation. It kind of forces you to distill down like the essence of a day. Like you're not getting into the nitty gritty. You're not getting into like what you wore, ate for every meal, but just like, the [00:35:00] essence of, of what the day was like.
And, and so like the journaling aspect of it is sort of one thing. And then through the podcast, the opportunity to reflect on the journaling is kind of a whole other... I mean, I remember there was a stretch of time when you were on the cruise ship that. I remember you saying like, "Oh my God, these entries in a row have been so negative. Like I'm complaining so much. Like, I don't even sound like myself. this is like kind of distressing to hear myself talk this way or write this way."
So I'm curious now that you have this element of journaling, this sort of built in reflection, what do you feel like that's brought into your life versus just the actual act of the journaling?
Michael Wessells: Oh, it absolutely has offered so much perspective on what's important. First of all, what, what did I think was important to write? And what does it look like now? And like you said, how am I, how am I taking each day? Some of those, so that cruise ship you're talking [00:36:00] about was my first time traveling the world.
And there's days when I'm complaining about the stupidest, minute things. And I'm like, why on earth was that your focus right now? Or I'm mentioning this, you know, this person or that person, or this group of people that makes me feel bad in some way. And then I mentioned, you know, another, another few people that make me feel great, but then I notice the people that made me feel bad, show up way more in the journal. And I'm like, why am I not spending time with the ones who are obviously bringing me joy? I mean, it wasn't obvious at the time, but it's obvious when I look back every single day, these, these patterns show up.
And you know, I'm still, still working on it. We're always, we're always working on it, but it just helps me to remember that... to step back a little bit to look at what I actually value, what truly brings me joy in any given moment, and the ways to, you know, focus on the good. And like that's such a loaded expression because a lot of times we just can't focus on the good, there's a lot we have to worry about that is not great, but like, for me, as [00:37:00] far as my own personal wellbeing, it's important to look back and say, "This was good for you, and this was not."
So, you know, if you want to continue finding, you can do whatever you want, Michael, old Michael. But if you want to find joy in your future, these entries all have joy in common. And these all entries, these entries all have, you know, anxiety and sadness in common. So choose which entries you want to be able to write in today.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I keep a daily journal. I do the Five Minute Journal and I got to the end of one of the Five Minute Journals and it was like "Take, you know, five minutes or however long to reflect on everything you wrote in this journal." And I was like, "I don't want to do that."
And I, I was so resistant to it for some reason. And I was like, no, no, for me, like the process of journaling is about the actual journaling, like in the moment, it's not about looking back at it. And, and I actually thought of you and I thought of your podcast. And I was like, you know, maybe this like really should be a bigger part of it.
So instead of doing it in that kind of formalized way at the end of each [00:38:00] journal, I've started like every now and then when I feel like it kind of flipping back through and noticing themes...
Michael Wessells: And that's so fun. It's great to like, just go pick a day. You know, you don't have to read your whole journal who wants to do that, but like, just grab a moment in time and check it out.
Lili Torre: Yes. It was even interesting to look like this calendar year and, you know, each day starts with three things that you're grateful for. And just kind of like flipping through almost like a flip book to like, see what things sort of stood out. And it was fascinating that starting about halfway through March, "my health" started popping up as a thing I was grateful for almost every day, whereas in January and February, I wasn't, you know, expressing gratitude for my health at all. And it's interesting.
Michael Wessells: It just helps you prioritize for sure. And you know what I wonder, would you ever dare give your journal to a best friend to look at? Because I do think I've gotten a much better perspective by having someone else's eyes on it, because we don't, we don't view [00:39:00] ourselves the way others view us, you know, which is good and bad and all in between.
But it's interesting for sure to get that perspective, especially from someone who cares so much about you, a best friend I don't know, but it, it is affirming and helpful for a friend to be like, sometimes I, you know, criticize my old self and he'll be like, "Well, let's... no this was the situation you were in. Like, look at it this way." Or "That's something we all did", or, yeah, that was embarrassing. But like, we all have, I mean, it's only this once or you know, it's just nice to get someone else to kind of, to help you out. It's hard to really objectively view yourself.
Lili Torre: Yeah, no, I feel like, I feel like Cam's really good about saying like, "Oh yeah, that's embarrassing. But like this one time I did this thing and like kind of sharing embarrassing moments for him as well." And it honestly makes me think, like, I feel like Brené Brown would love your podcast. I feel like she would be like...
well, the truly, I feel like it's such a great case study in like shame and like, you know what, she always says that the [00:40:00] best way to combat shame is to share it and like to share the thing that you feel is so shameful and to air it out. And you are very much airing it out, not only with your best friend, but with the world.
And that would actually be really fascinating to sort of. You know, I'm sure she would love to have a conversation with you about how that's, adapted your perception of yourself and the shame that you feel around things that you've been through. I think that's super interesting.
Michael Wessells: Yeah. I mean, and it's all so new. I'm like, as you ask these questions, I'm like thinking the answers are popping up, but it's all, you're helping me to put words around a lot of bubbling thoughts over the last year and a half, but like it's only been a year and a half I've been doing the podcast who knows how I feel about this all the five years from now and what I might have learned or... I have no idea. It'll be... I feel like the, podcast is in and of itself a journal. We are, documenting pretty much weekly, what is going on. So the, we talk about how we feel that week you can really hear what is stressing us or not. But then we also, you know, [00:41:00] look at the old journal.
So it's kind of this weird conglomeration of time and space.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I was just, I was literally just thinking that eventually you could do My Best Friend's Podcast and listen with another friend back to old episodes of My Best Friend's Journal and unpack those episodes.
Michael Wessells: Lili! I have been okay. I will. I'm going to need your help on that project, but it's going to happen. Thank you so much. You're going to be in the title of whatever it is because I have been looking for just that. That's what we need. Okay. I've already, like, as I've been doing this, I'm like, okay, this is going somewhere.
I don't, I don't know exactly where it's going yet. And I've been thinking about lots of different avenues. This could be, and that is one I need to explore. So thank you for that gift. Pearls, pearls, always every time you speak.
Lili Torre: Well, I'm just, you know, dying for more opportunities to listen to you talk. So that was really for me.
Michael Wessells: That said, I couldn't [00:42:00] possibly go any further on the narcissism without- a podcast about myself. And now I'm talking about my podcast about myself on your podcast and just so much me, me, me and I exhaust myself sometimes. And, I am grateful that you are happy to deal with this.
Lili Torre: No, it is truly a gift. You are what makes the podcast so very great. just to kind of wrap up today, I would love to just... digging even deeper into the meta self exploration, self-awareness hole that we're already in. I would love to know what having this podcast has done for you, just as a person and as a creative being as an artist, how, you know, you started to touch on in the beginning of our conversation today, about how the opportunity to, to create something and be in charge in that way and do what you want has been so fulfilling.
And I'm curious, you know, at least from my perspective, the podcast is very successful and it's done really [00:43:00] well. And I'm, I'm curious what that's done for you as a person.
Michael Wessells: It is incredibly affirming. I feel honestly very proud of it and I don't, I don't remember the last time I had, you know, a piece of work or a show I did, honestly, that I was like, I'm really proud of this. I... you know, I sang on cruise ships for a while, which was so fun and I got to see the world, but I never finished a show and was like, "I'm really proud of my work there."
It's a thing. And there's so, so many aspects that go into this. My partnership with my best friend has been amazing. I am so grateful to him that we have been able to work on this together. I could not have done it without him and I, am proud that we were able to... you know, we're still very much best friends and it's, I think it's hard to have a business with your best friend and I'm thrilled that we could, you know, transcend that barrier.
I am proud that so many people have connected with it. It makes me so happy to hear from anyone about their own [00:44:00] experience with similar things or just, or with the general things. Sometimes Cam and I talk about random stuff that strikes a chord with someone that they don't feel comfortable saying with any of their other friends.
And I love that they're getting an outlet to quote, unquote, talk about it. Cause we it's one-sided but I feel grateful and I feel proud. I, like I said about the journal to begin with, I rarely complete something like this and I, it's not just like...
Every episode to me is a little baby that I get to like mold. And I remember that very first time... we lucked out in the first couple of episodes, cause a few like huge stories came up right away and it kind of worked out for us, but I was... people kept asking, what are you going to do when it's just boring? And what's going to happen when you know, it just, nothing pops up.
And I was like, well, we'll deal with that when we got there. And you know, we got there pretty quick. And I remember, like episode, I dunno, six or something. We had an episode where we had gotten through a bunch of pages in the journal and it was nothing crazy happened. They were all mostly mundane, but after the edit was done, I was like this [00:45:00] is a great episode it's one of my favorites.
And I always joke with Cam about molding something great out of like a pile of... poop. It like, it felt in the moment I was like, "Oh, this is nothing. What is this?" And then I was like, it.. So much of the, you know, the fun, creative energy that I get to bring to it is, is in the edit in the afterward.
It's how to tie these together, how to make this a story, how to make an arc from the beginning to the end, how to make jokes interwoven throughout the whole thing, how to bring in some pop culture. And it I'm like proud of myself for figuring that out. I didn't know how to edit a podcast and you know how that journey goes.
And it's like, you first checked the mark of I can do it now and then I can do it well, and then wait, I can, I can like really make this thing grow and ...it's affirming. I, I don't know. I, um, have a hard time giving myself credit for a lot of things and I feel very happy to give myself credit for this and Cam of course, and it, makes me feel proud. That's the best word.
[00:46:00] Lili Torre: Yeah, well, you should be proud because it's, you know, I get a lot of people who reach out to me and say, "I'm thinking about starting a podcast." And, a lot of the time that podcast never comes to fruition and it never happens and that's okay. It's not for everyone. And it is, as you've mentioned, a lot of work.
And I think I actually remember. When I, I think you were one of the first people I ever told about TDQ and that I was creating this podcast. And you were like, "I'm also creating a podcast."
Michael Wessells: Yeah they were born around the same time.
Lili Torre: Yes. And we, yeah, we were very much like on this journey together and just to see that what you have done with it and what you've made it into is really exciting and inspiring.
And it's so wonderful to hear and to know that every element of the process has brought you something and taught you something and has given you that sense of control and creativity [00:47:00] that you seek so much to the point where theater, that you're looking at your theatrical career differently.
And I think that that's really an amazing thing that it's empowered you so much, that you don't feel beholden to an industry in which you don't feel as empowered or like you have as much power.
Michael Wessells: Thank you for articulating what I was like, trying to get the words for, I don't... Yeah, I have never been able to feel that kind of joy from a show, because for so many reasons I didn't create it from the bottom up. I didn't, or, you know, sometimes I'm in a role that I'm, I'm not perfect at. There's a, there's a few things that I can't really nail and I don't love.
And that doesn't happen with this project. I mean, it's my own it's it's yeah. It's a, it's a very different thing. And I feel that that awareness that I'm getting this joy out of. My own thing that I did not get in the theater world is helping me realize that while I still want it in my life as a survival job.
I don't want it as my main, as the main deal. I want this as my main deal. I want to [00:48:00] make my own main deal, you know?
Lili Torre: Yes, that is amazing. Well, it is a wonderful investment of your time, effort, and energy, because what you have created is truly such a joy. And I will definitely be linking it in the show notes so that as soon as this episode is over, everyone can immediately go listen to more Michael Wessells on My Best Friend's Journal.
Michael Wessells: It's a lot. Warning, it's a lot.
Lili Torre: A lot of laughs. A lot of joy. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. This was such a treat.
Michael Wessells: No. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And thanks for, I call you on my show, the Podcast Guru, that's your name by the way, my Podcast Guru, because you helped me along the way. I was like, how do I do this? And that and that? So thank you. Because everything we just talked about for the last half hour or so is so much thanks to you and your support. So truly, I...
Lili Torre: Of course.
Michael Wessells: I couldn't be more grateful.
Lili Torre: Oh, well, thank you. And I definitely think I'm going to have to have you back on soon so we can continue to unpack our lives outside of New York City [00:49:00] and in different markets. And I think we could, share some pretty interesting stories, hopefully. So I definitely want to keep talking about that.
Michael Wessells: I would love to come back if you'll have me.
Lili Torre: If you've ever thought about starting a podcast, I'm really glad you listened to today's episode. Michael gave us some pretty real perspective on the great parts and the hard parts about having a podcast.
I also really enjoyed his insight on thinking of theater as a survival job. After listening back to today's episode, it sounds more to me like it might fall in the thrival job category for him, but regardless, I'm excited to see how that plays out once theaters eventually start reopening.
Michael is so self-aware, hilarious, and also unafraid to be vulnerable, which are the qualities that make his podcast oh, so great. That and his goalz level relationship with his cohost and best friend Cam. Scroll on down to the show notes for a link to My Best Friend's Journal podcast and Instagram for some belly laughs during this wild time.
I'm so grateful to you for listening and as [00:50:00] always, I hope you'll reach out to me with any questions or comments on today's episode. And if you know someone who's considering starting a podcast, I highly recommend you share today's episode with them.
I'm Lili Torre, and this has been The Dreaded Question.