Lili welcomes Jen Waldman back to TDQ to discuss what Jen's looking forward to in 2021, some amazing social media hacks, The Dip vs. burnout, and what change making things we can expect from JWS Online in 2021!
Jen's website
Jen's instagram: @jenwaldman
Jen Waldman Studio
JWS Allied Artists Sponsorship Program
Jorge Maldonado Evolving Artists Fellowship
Jen’s previous TDQ episodes:
Pivot with Purpose
Believing in a Better Future
Turning Vision into Strategy
Context is Everything (Part 1)
Context is Everything (Part 2)
The Long and the Short Of It Podcast
TLATSOI Episodes mentioned:
Cross the Bridge
The Five P’s
Self Gratitude
Recommended books:
Transcend by Scott Barry Kaufman
Bored and Brilliant by Manoush Zomorodi
The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron
The Dip by Seth Godin
Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski
Comedy audiobooks Lili mentioned- James Acaster's Classic Scrapes and Perfect Sound Whatever
Seth Godin’s altMBA
Recommended resources:
News Feed Eradicator plug in
Otter (voice transcription app)
Corey John Hafner’s episodes of TDQ:
Part 1
Part 2
WorkLife podcast Burnout Is Everyone's Problem episode
Unlocking Us Podcast on Burnout and Completing the Stress Cycle
TDQ’s Website
Instagram: @thedreadedquestion
Lili’s instagram: @lili_torre
Email: thedreadedquestionpodcast@gmail.com
TDQ JenWaldman
[00:00:00] Lili Torre: Hello listeners. Welcome back to The Dreaded Question and welcome to 2021!
Last week, I had the pleasure of speaking to one half of The Long and the Short Of It podcast, Peter Shepherd, as we unpacked some takeaways from 2020. This week, I get to welcome back another TDQ favorite and the other half of The Long and the Short Of It, the one and only Jen Waldman, as we delve into looking forward into 2021. If you haven't heard Jen's previous episodes of TDQ, I'll link them in the show notes. She has been part of every season of TDQ, and it's always a highlight for me.
In case you don't already know, Jen's 2020 was full of masterful pivoting as she created JWS Online, which has been incredibly successful in every sense of the word. Now she's looking forward into 2021 and continuing to innovate along the way. As usual, I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with her and I'm absolutely certain that you'll enjoy it too.
So let's find out what Jen Waldman [00:01:00] is going to be up to in 2021.
So Jen Waldman, what are you looking forward to in 2021?
Jen Waldman: Oh, wow. Okay. Lili.
Lili Torre: Very small, minor question.
Jen Waldman: Just, ya know, something small to get us going.
Okay. What am I looking forward to in 2021?
Okay. Two things: one on a personal level, I'm looking forward to figuring out how to change my actual scenery more frequently in 2021.
Like figuring out how to change it up during a global pandemic. We've- we meaning my family and I, have been playing around with that very recently, and it's been very mentally healthy to do that.
And then on a larger scale. I'm really looking forward [00:02:00] to taking some big ideas that were in my head in 2020 and realizing them in 2021. So 2021 for me is a project based year.
Lili Torre: Yes. I love that because you're so right that like 2020 sort of derailed a lot of things for a lot of people that we were excited to be working on. And I know for you, I'm sure at the very beginning of 2020, you never imagined that you would be completely overhauling your studio, bringing it online, changing the format, changing everything about it. And you've still managed to do some other incredible things as well. But I can imagine there was a lot more than you were planning on.
Jen Waldman: Yeah, indeed. 2020 was a year of curve balls.
Lili Torre: Yes, it was. Yes, it was. And I'm curious, because I know on The Long and the Short Of It, that you co-host with Peter Shepherd, that you talk a lot about how Peter is a little bit more [00:03:00] take-things-as-they-come, go with the flow and that you're a bit more of a planner and you really like to think ahead, have a plan and make it happen and cross that bridge before you get there.
And so I'm, I'm curious for you where that boundary is, if that's the right word, or how you find yourself adapting when things have completely not gone to plan and you need to scrap and start over.
Jen Waldman: Well, I have to like give myself a high five for rolling with the punches of 2020. And really, it was such an unusual year in so many ways, but for me personally, one of the biggest things was that I didn't actually know what I was working toward except sort of conceptually.
Like I knew that my priority was keeping my community connected and thriving. That was the [00:04:00] key to everything. So with everything we were building, it was like, well, what does this mean for the community? Now that we're past the, is-our-community-still-together hump, which we're, we are and we're together and we're past the hump.
Now the question is what are we actually working toward? Which is where my sweet spot is. So taking everything that I learned over the last year has been the key to figuring out what the projects are going to be for 2021. So it's not like 2020 was, was a wash. I collected golden data that I'm now using to sort of crystallize in a very specific way like what does the community need in terms of milestones, in terms of projects, in terms of accomplishments. And that's really what the next year is going to be about.
So now I'm feeling like, Oh, I'm myself again, like I know what I'm working [00:05:00] toward, but I also recognize that I've always had some sort of a data collection process it's just, this one was stretched out. It was just a lot longer than I usually would take to sort of figure out what's next.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I mean, I think it's understandable. And I love what you're saying about, you know, you can't look back at 2020 as just kind of a wash or you know, dumpster fire or screw 2020, all of these things that I think a lot of us feel from time to time and think to ourselves from time to time.
But you know, Peter Shepherd and I kind of talked about this on his episode that there's so much to be learned, there's so much to take forward. And while some, many of the memories from 2020 are certainly painful and difficult to reckon with, throwing them away does completely make the year a wash. If you enter 2021 without the lessons from 2020 then it truly was just a [00:06:00] lost year of life.
So I love that not only were you able to adapt in the moment and... I don't want to say throw away your plans necessarily, cause I'm sure the plans that you made helped inform your decisions, but adapt and say, okay, that's not gonna work now because of all these obstacles. So here's what we're going to do. But then you were able to collect really unique data that now is informing the next iteration of what's to come.
Jen Waldman: Oh my gosh. I have to circle back to something you said, because it's literally the point, which is your plans inform your decisions. That's the key. For me, that is why I love planning.
Ultimately... I mean, I think the reason I'm not like lying in a puddle on the floor right now is ultimately, I, it doesn't matter to me if my plans actually work out. The point of the planning is to inform the decisions you make moment to moment to know that you're moving in a [00:07:00] direction that you want to move.
What we don't want to do is to flip that and say like, "My decisions will ultimately inform my plans." Because then you don't really have your eye on where you want to go. So I think that's a really key point.
And like I said, the reason I can be smiling and jovial with you today is because yes, I went into 2020 with a plan that we were going to do X, Y, and Z, and we ended up doing A, B, and C instead. But in both cases, we're moving toward our vision, we're executing on purpose, we're living in integrity with our values and that's what matters.
Lili Torre: Yes. I love that. And I'm so glad that you sort of highlighted that point, because I think for a lot of people who feel a resistance towards whether it be, you know, strict planning or for me, sometimes I feel a resistance towards goal setting because it can feel a little bit too locked in.
I think a really important [00:08:00] concept to layer on top of planning, is that unattachment to the outcome. And that it's really just... as cliche as it may be, like a compass or an arrow to point you in a direction for all of the decisions that you have to make. I love that.
Jen Waldman: Yeah, I'm just thinking right now, since the last time you and I talked, I've probably read like 50 books. Oh dear. So I'm sorry. Sorry, listeners. You're probably going to get a library of suggestions today, but something that you just said reminded me of a book I read over the summer called Transcend by Scott Barry Kaufman, it's excellent.
And he replaces the term goal setting with striving that not like, what goal are you trying to hit? It's what are you striving for? And I love that idea. So for people like you, who experience resistance to like, "I don't really want to set a goal," that's fine. And what are you striving for? What are you aiming [00:09:00] for? Where are you headed? So in case that helps.
Lili Torre: Yes. I love that. And I will definitely check out that book.
I think that, you know, again, this year was such a good example for so many of those types of things, because again, I spoke to Peter Shepherd about this, that I, one of my intentions for the year, at the beginning of the year before Coronavirus was that I was going to leave more room for wrenches because I was finding that I was so over-scheduling, overfilling my life, that then a wrench would get thrown in and I would completely fall apart and be like, Oh my God, I can't do this.
And so then Coronavirus hit and I was like, Oh, Hey, here's the biggest, uh, wrench I've ever had in my life. And I, I guess I'm glad I started to leave some space for it. And I feel like it has made me more open to ideas like goal setting, but I love what you said about striving because it has helped me feel less lost [00:10:00] or... I don't know why the word "useless" comes to mind, but I think a lot of artists have maybe felt useless in this time of like, well, what am I supposed to do with all of this when you know, I can't perform and do my art in the way that I, I want to.
And of course, JWS Online was a big part of that for me of it gave me something familiar, even though it was different, obviously, but familiar in the sense of a lot of the same people, a lot of the same teachers, you of course, and allowed me to sort of ease into this idea of looking for other things and really allowing myself to, to look at being an artist differently.
Jen Waldman: Mm, what you just said reminded me of a couple of things. Recently, Peter and I did this episode called The Five P's where we attempted to put into some sort of a hierarchy, the words passion, purpose, plans, priorities, and [00:11:00] projects. And one of the big aha moments I had while we were recording that, is passion is a product of exposure. You can't be passionate about something you've never been exposed to.
And so when I hear you say that a lot of actors are not getting to use their craft in the way they want to, I wonder if what might actually be behind that is they're not getting to use their craft in the way they know how to, or the way they've been exposed to.
And one of the things that has blown my mind during this pandemic is, you know, we started offering classes in filmmaking and puppetry and just all these things that we would never have offered in person.
And there are people who had- I'm thinking of someone in particular right now who had zero experience in filmmaking... actually, I'm thinking of two people- who took the filmmaking class. [00:12:00] And became, literally became filmmakers. One became a film editor, like for money. Like that is what she's doing with her life right now.
And the other is in screenwriting school.
Lili Torre: Whoa, that's amazing.
Jen Waldman: I know. And it's just incredible to me because had they not been exposed to filmmaking, they would have had no idea there was a passion there, but they were exposed, they found the passion and now they can use their craft in a new way.
Lili Torre: Yes. And I want to add to your list that I also took the filmmaking class with Mark Shanahan- amazing class- and loved it so much loved the film that I created, and I'm going to be directing a short film next year when we're allowed to be back filming things.
Jen Waldman: That's amazing.
Lili Torre: But again, not something I had ever done. Not a medium I thought really was mine, only took it because I'm obsessed with Mark, and now it's led to this whole new area of the [00:13:00] arts that I have an interest in and has led to new opportunities for me. So I definitely agree with that.
Jen Waldman: I love that.
Lili Torre: And I think that, I mean, you're so right, obviously about passion, that, that it is all about what you've been exposed to. And so I think this idea that artists feel like they don't get to use their skills right now. Yeah. It is about exposing yourself to new things. And this is kind of a weird way to say this, but like exposing your skills to new things.
Like utilizing them in spaces where you thought they weren't allowed or weren't welcome or appreciated.
Jen Waldman: "Expose your skills" is a great mantra. And I hope someone listening will adopt that as their 2021 mantra.
Lili Torre: Yes. I mean, that's so much of the point of this podcast and the work that I've been doing with the amazing people who have created parallel careers in this time is saying like, you have all of these [00:14:00] things and don't just throw them away, they're they're valuable.
And I know that was something that I learned this year in the altMBA, which I know you've also taken and it blew my mind to see the way that immediately right off the bat, the people who I was thinking of as, you know, business people who would not- never appreciate like my soft skills quote unquote.
In the first day of talking with them by the end of our first call, they were like, I don't know, Lili, what do you think? About like their problems and they were like, you're so empathetic, like, I feel like you you're just going to get it. And that, I mean, that first day I like cracked open my mind in ways I never could have imagined.
Jen Waldman: I always have said about my own altMBA experience is you get your money's worth in the first day. Everything after that is icing on the cake. It's the first day where you're like, Oh, this was definitely worth it. Yeah. I learned everything I [00:15:00] need to learn. And now beyond this, it's just extra.
Lili Torre: Yeah. I mean, again, it's exposing yourself to new experiences.
Like I hadn't been in a Zoom room with four people of such different demographics of like country, age, business, everything, you know, been thrown into a Zoom room with them for hours to just like, have a conversation about something. That had never happened to me before. And so I was able to expose my skills to them and found out that, Hey, guess what? They were valued.
Jen Waldman: Okay, this is such a weird response to that, but something that I've learned recently that I'm trying to do is when I find something that's kind of interesting to me, I will like intentionally prompt Facebook to start sending me ads. Cause you know, you get ads anyway.
So like I went down the rabbit hole of wanting to do some [00:16:00] sort of online leadership training program, you know, sidebar, I was supposed to go to the Yale Women's Leadership Program in May, obviously...Corona.... and I've been very frustrated that I didn't replace that experience this year.
So I was like, Oh, if I just like start searching on Facebook and on Google everything I possibly can, my Facebook feed will be completely like leadership training programs and that's exactly what happened. So I click on a couple of those and then it pops more into your feed. And then the only ads are the things that you're actually wondering what's out there.
It's been a great life hack. Not that I'm encouraging people to spend more time on Facebook, but it does help with that like weird digital problem that we have of... you know, you used to be able to walk into a bookstore for example, and then have something you weren't looking for find [00:17:00] you because it's just prominently displayed on a random shelf.
And in the internet universe, it's harder to have that experience so you can hack it so that the internet shows you something that you wouldn't have found, but you're definitely interested in.
Lili Torre: I love that. Of course you have like a brilliant Facebook algorithm, like a way to use social media more intentionally hack for us.
That is so cool. I am obsessed. I was just talking to JD Ricafort on this podcast about algorithms and how one thing that he likes about podcasts is that yes, there's still some algorithm involved, but it's more easy to sort of seek out things that will interest you. And what's going to be on them isn't as controlled. Like there'll be a different guest every week if it's a guest style format, and it's not... the algorithm's not involved in that.
And I was thinking... wow, this is going down a very [00:18:00] weird rabbit hole, but I was literally thinking after that episode about how... I can't believe I'm talking about this, about how the culturally popular term "basic" to be a basic person or a "basic bitch" as the phrase is coined, I really think is about just being this sort of algorithmic by-product and not being... you know, you think of like the Starbucks pumpkin spice latte and the Ugg boots. And it's just like, those are the things that just automatically come up on people's algorithms. Like it's not interesting, it's not curated in any way. Like their... who they are as a person, their ethos is not part of that at all.
And so I, I can't believe that you brought that up because I was just reflecting on how like algorithms have created this thing about being basic, that we don't even know that that's what it is. And you just provided us with the beautiful hack to, uh, not be basic.
[00:19:00] Jen Waldman: Well, okay. So one more social media hack is: only go to your feed if you actually want to see the ads.
In other words, if you're going to Facebook for some very specific purpose, like to go to a group, you're a part of, use a browser that enables the Newsfeed Eradicator and only do the thing you're going to do. So over on Google Chrome, you don't even see your feed, but if you are researching things, go over to Safari, but then only click on the things you want to see more of.
That's how I've sort of like rationed my feeding is I only use Safari if I'm actually looking for something.
Lili Torre: I love that cause a Safari is an exploration, which I know is probably why they came up with that name, but I love it. It works.
And I also love referring to scrolling on your feed as feeding that's, um, something I'm going to keep in my back [00:20:00] pocket.
I mean, one of the books that I've read recently, which I know is a favorite of yours, is Bored and Brilliant and that book and the process that comes with it have really, really been amazing for me. And as someone who doesn't think of herself as super social media addicted or super even phone addicted.
It has been a great way for me to just take that back even more and, and face the reality of like, okay, well I say I'm not that into it, but here is the evidence right in front of me, again, collecting that data. And I think for all of us, it's a great time to reevaluate because while I do believe that that has been true about myself, 2020 and spending more time indoors and being home more and just having your phone there more and just having to be on your screens more, has led me to continue to be on them more. So I think it's a great time to reevaluate and curate and [00:21:00] hack the things that are already in place.
Jen Waldman: Bored and Brilliant is a great title for anyone who sets a new year's resolution of being on your digital devices, less frequently. So grab a copy of the book and then go through all of the exercises because it will really set up your 2021 for a less digital, chaotic, attached experience.
Lili Torre: Absolutely recommend. And yeah, I would say anyone who wants less phone/screen time in their life, but also anyone who wants, who has new year's resolutions around creativity and, you know, sparking more of it and being more creative in the new year, because especially, I think a lot of artists have felt less in touch with their creativity in this time. And I think that lessening your screen time can definitely help with that. But as we mentioned earlier, so can sort of redefining what that means to you.
Jen Waldman: Okay, one [00:22:00] more hack, one more hack.
Lili Torre: Yes!
Jen Waldman: For people who, to your point, want to be more creative in 2021. I'm sure everybody who is listening, who identifies as an artist is familiar with the book The Artist's Way. And it's very likely that many of the people who are familiar with the book have started, but not completed it. This is sort of, you know, the, the trend I've witnessed over the years is I asked a room of artists who here has completed The Artist's Way? Like one hand goes up and then I ask who here has started The Artist's Way? And everyone's hand goes up.
So a really useful Artist's Way hack that I didn't intentionally give to someone, but they told me they, they've implemented, is using Otter, using a voice transcription app to replace the morning pages.
So if you're someone for whom journaling is really really hard, like putting the physical pen to paper, now you can put digital pen to paper, just go for a walk, [00:23:00] turn on your voice memo for whatever the amount of time it would have taken you to write your three morning pages and get your thoughts out of your head that way.
So the person who shared this with me told me that this is the first time she's ever completed The Artist's Way cause she used Otter instead of pen and paper.
Lili Torre: Wow. That's so cool. I love that because I'm definitely more of a talk-it-out type of gal. I'm not a huge journaler... mostly- it's something that I want to almost like force myself to practice and be like, stop telling yourself that you don't do this, but I self-edit so much when I write there's so much more time to do that. Whereas when you're just talking, you are just talking and especially if, then you look at it on Otter as it auto transcribes that for you and you read it back, I'm sure you would find a lot of really interesting things.
I feel like I'm in the worst category of Artist's Way people. Uh, I purchased the book and it has sat on my bookshelf because [00:24:00] I was afraid of being one of the people who started it and didn't finish it. So I just never started it.
Jen Waldman: That's so funny. Yeah. I guess there is that third category. Who has purchased The Artist's Way?
Lili Torre: I hope I wouldn't be the only hand that went up.
Jen Waldman: No, you wouldn't.
Lili Torre: So I know we've talked about the studio a little bit, but I know that there are a lot of new things coming up in 2021, and I would love to hold some space to hear about everything that's going on with the studio in 2021.
Jen Waldman: Oh my gosh. So 2020 was, as we mentioned earlier, a bunch of curve balls and the things that happened inside the studio could not, would not, never would have happened had we not been thrown these curve balls.
And just to give you an example, back in May, two people from [00:25:00] within the studio came to me and said, we want to create a sponsorship program where artists sponsor artists. They were going to do it with, or without me, but I guess wanted the thumbs up.
So they decided to do this with a goal of raising enough sponsorship money to sponsor two people. They ended up sponsoring 20 people.
Lili Torre: Wow. That's amazing.
Jen Waldman: Right? It was crazy. So all of the money in that first round of sponsorship came from members of the studio, no outside fundraising, none of that. So there was of course a light bulb moment where it was like, wait a minute, we could be doing this in a much more structured and expansive way.
So because those two people came forward. We now have the Allied Artists Sponsorship Program. Where we have a steering committee of six members of the community. It's a rotating [00:26:00] committee.
So we've got this amazing thing happening all because people from within the community said, "We want this and we're going to make it happen." Like that just blows my mind.
So we are rolling out a brand new fellowship program, which has been in beta for most of 2020. For many years, we silently and invisibly had a scholarship program named for Jorge Maldonado, but we weren't very vocal about it. And we'd scholarshipped many artists over the years, but we didn't have any fanfare attached, and then it finally occurred to me, like if we don't say that we're doing this, how could anyone else copy it?
Lili Torre: Yeah. Whoa.
Jen Waldman: So we finally started talking about it publicly, but because the sponsorship program emerged, it gave us a chance to rethink what we were doing with the Jorge Maldonado scholarship. And we have since evolved that into a fellowship program. So we've had three [00:27:00] fellows, so far .
And we'll be building out that program even farther in 2021 to really... Like the ultimate goal of all of these things is to create the pipeline, create the bench, for the next generation of change makers in the arts.
So that's, what's going on in certain areas. But then in terms of classes, we are, like I said, getting really project-focused this year in addition to staying community focused. So JWS online is continuing to move forward with its community-based classes. And we are also moving back into small cohorts. So running alongside JWS online will be small group classes of like 6 to 10 people. Classes in playwriting, script analysis, acting, et cetera, et cetera.
So all of those offerings are, by the time this is released, they'll all be up on our website. So people can go over to [00:28:00] JenWaldman.com and find all those classes. So we'll have the big group classes and we'll have the teeny tiny cohorts all operating at the same time.
Lili Torre: Wow. That is a lot of things happening and a lot of shifts and they all sound incredible.
I have to cycle back to what you said when you were talking about the scholarship fund and you said, you know, if we don't promote it, if we're not vocal about it, how could anyone else copy it? And that just like blew my mind because of course, like that's what you want people to copy. Like that's what you want people to take.
That's the, the big idea that is worth sharing that you want everyone to go and take. And I just think that that's such a generous way of looking at it because so often we're protective of our ideas and we don't want people to steal them and we want the credit for doing this amazing thing.
And I think it's such a great aha moment to have that like, this is an idea [00:29:00] I want people to, to steal and run with and, and do, so let me- through promoting my scholarship, through promoting the things that I'm doing. I am also creating further scholarships and opportunities and the ripple effect is so much bigger. I love that you said that.
Jen Waldman: Yeah. We had a fellowship meeting a couple of weeks ago where we were talking about essentially blowing up the entire model of how an idea moves from inception to public performance and that. Part of what we're trying to do with this project, we're going to be working on in 2021 is create for lack of a better word, a prototype, and then hope that people steal it from us.
Lili Torre: Cool. That's amazing. I mean, what a great next step, next evolution of the studio. Like it, [00:30:00] it's going to be one of those things that I feel like five years from now, we're going to look back and be like, Whoa, that all just like aligned so perfectly. Like those dominoes really stood up, but It can be so much harder in the moment to see that.
But I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier of like having that plan and that the outcome may not be, you may not achieve the outcome that you think you're going towards, but at least, you know where you're placing the next domino. And yeah, I think that's so cool.
And it sounds like there are some incredible programs coming out of this. And I love that you're doing kind of a hybrid basically of the 2019 studio and the 2020 studio but online. That's amazing.
Jen Waldman: Oh, that's a good way to describe it. Cause it really is... it's like pre COVID and mid COVID had a studio baby and that's the 2021 version of Jen Waldman Studio.
Lili Torre: Yes. A beautiful [00:31:00] child. I'm sure. I'm so excited about that.
I think for again, if your new year's resolution is to reignite creativity or be more creative or anything surrounding creativity, I can't recommend JWS Online enough for fulfilling those goals.
And especially, you know, if you've taken some space from working on your craft because, you know, you had to, to work or create a parallel career or do whatever it was that you needed to do to get through 2020.
I love that you said mid pandemic, because I think a lot of people are feeling like closing the book on 2020 is closing the book on COVID. And that's certainly not the case, unfortunately. As much as we wish it were.
And so I think looking ahead now to 2021, it's important to think sustainably for yourself, "What do I need to do to continue to survive and to continue to hone my creativity and not let that fall by the wayside." [00:32:00] So I think this is a great time to reflect on that.
Jen Waldman: Yeah. Agreed.
Lili Torre: Speaking of stealing things, I kind of want to put you on the spot again and steal a question from your podcast and ask it to you. I would love to know what you're grateful to yourself for from 2020.
Jen Waldman: There are several things that come to mind. Maybe I'll just say them all and then pick one to unpack.
I am grateful to myself for never succumbing to the dip. Like I probably hit a dip every week during this whole thing and I kept going. So I'm really grateful to myself for not dropping the ball, because as Seth Godin says, when you hit the dip, it means you're doing meaningful work. And so keeping my eye on how the work is [00:33:00] meaningful to other people really helped me get through it so many times.
I would also say I am grateful to myself for recognizing the difference between dip and burnout. And there was a point where I was on the edge of burnout, and I took a step back and I padded my calendar with some free time and really gave myself a moment to breathe without stopping. Like I didn't stop working, but I gave myself a moment to breathe. So I'm grateful to myself for recognizing the difference between the two.
And then just final thought is I'm really grateful to myself for sticking with the idea of learning always. It would have been so easy- I don't know if you experienced this- I found it very hard to read at a certain point during the pandemic. I just like, my mind was wandering. I [00:34:00] would have to reread the same page like seven times, but I just never stopped reading.
And like I said to you earlier, I mean, maybe I'm exaggerating, but I also might not be, I probably read about 50 books during this pandemic and it was torturous at certain moments, but I did it and I kept learning things. And now I have all of this new knowledge that I'm going to put to use in 2021.
So I said I was going to pick one thing, but I picked three.
Lili Torre: I love them all. And I'm glad that you shared them cause they all brought up thoughts for me. I definitely experienced that struggle with reading for a while there.
As I mentioned, when I did the altMBA, they, they send you a bunch of books. Many of which I had read before, but some I hadn't and I read them voraciously. I was so excited about them. And then the altMBA ended and I was like, Ugh. I don't want to read anything. And like, I would pick up a book. And like you said, that horrible feeling, I hate the feeling when you read the same, like two sentences over and over and your brain is not processing it.
[00:35:00] And so I switched to audio books for a while and that actually really helped me. And I allowed myself to change my genre. So I started listening to like, comedy books like this comedian that wrote some books and it really revived me.
Like it was a very odd choice for me. I'm not really into standup comedy very much. And I had never really listened to like a comedy book before, but I finished one and I was like, does he have any others? And he had another one and I listened to that. And of course in his own voice as the comedian, it was really great. And it just brought me so much joy. And then when I picked up a book again, I was like, I'm ready for this.
So, and I think what's interesting about that is it kind of goes to what you were saying about the dip versus burnout. Like you can push through. Sometimes you can push through and just be [00:36:00] like, no, keep reading, keep reading. You can do this. Keep going.
And sometimes you have to be like, I'm burning out. So like, let me figure out a way to switch it up that maybe will help me, will reignite me. And that's exactly what it did.
Jen Waldman: Hm. I love that so much. It reminds me of what we were just saying with the morning pages, like changing the medium. Going from written to audio in order to keep the work moving forward.
And it doesn't make you any less of a reader to be using an audio format versus a hard copy.
Lili Torre: But, you know, what's so funny. And again, I think this is coming back to like the resistance that I sometimes feel towards goal setting is because if you're too rigid with things, which I think I have a tendency to be sometimes like, if I'm gonna do The Artist's Way, I'm going to do The Artist's Way and I'm going to write the morning pages.
Like I get a little bit like that, where, and I would think in my head maybe like, Oh, doing the voice memo version, like that's cheating. Like that's not what was intended, but when that book was written, like there wasn't Otter. [00:37:00] So like, no, she didn't intend for you to use Otter because it didn't exist.
Because then I noticed with reading, I write down all the books that I read every year. I have like a, a list that I keep just for fun. And I noticed I didn't write down any of the audio books. And I was like, Lili you listened to like five audio books, like write those down. Those were part of your year. You read those books, even if it wasn't with your eyes, that counts.
So I think, yeah, this like rigidity is really the thing that like keeps us from recognizing burnout and ultimately succeeding at things because then it's like, okay, then I just won't do The Artist's Way.
Jen Waldman: Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, there's so many parallels we can draw here between government and rigidity, and religion and rigidity, but essentially at the heart of it all is as our world evolves, we have to evolve with it. And as we evolve, our systems have to evolve. If we [00:38:00] just try to hold on to the way it is quote supposed to be done, we will never get anywhere.
Lili Torre: Exactly. And, you know, I think it also... wow our conversation is just like really all... it's all coming together. Because this idea of like hacking things really is about doing something in a way that works for you. So like the algorithms exist, we know they exist and you can hack them and make them work for you by intentionally searching things that you want to know more about.
Or you can allow yourself to be basic and just have the algorithm or the algorithmic information thrown at you until you think that's who you are. And I think that's such a, a great distinction that... gosh, I'm thinking back to season one with Corey John Hafner, that he is incredible at curating his experience in everything he does. And that's something that I admire about him so much [00:39:00] and something I've tried to adopt.
And I think that's so much of what you're talking about is you can tailor these goals, these projects, these ideas, to who you know that you are as a person and what will work for you.
Jen Waldman: Yes. Yes. Yes. That resonates with me so deeply.
Lili Torre: And I do kind of want to unpack it a little bit further just because it is the start of a new year and a lot of people do set goals, about the dip versus burnout. I definitely feel similarly that there were many dips this year. Sometimes I called them like potholes cause I felt like I'd be like walking along and doing great, and then like my foot would get stuck and I'd be like crying about the pandemic one day and be like, I don't even know where this came from.
But I would love to know for you, like how you managed to identify that, like this isn't just a dip. This is an impending burnout and I need to nip it in the bud now.
Jen Waldman: Well, part of this happened because a friend of mine called me, and he was [00:40:00] like, "Hey, I'm worried about us." Like, okay. He goes, "I just, I see that you and I are on this same trajectory where we literally haven't come up for air yet. And I'm worried that we're going to fall off the end of a cliff. So I just wanted to tell you that."
Oh, okay. Um, good to know. Good to know, thanks for the call in. And so that was when I first started paying attention to it. That was probably like three or four months into the pandemic.
So I started paying attention, but I was still so completely energized at that point. So maybe I brushed it off, but come the end of the summer or like when the school year was supposed to start, I think that's when it really hit me when my daughter was doing at-home school. I think that's like when a major reality check started for me.
And I just found myself getting really [00:41:00] exhausted. And when I'm in the dip, I'm not exhausted. I'm frustrated, I lose my willpower, but I'm not like physically depleted. And that's how I knew it was something different. Like I could not find the spark that I needed to really do my best work.
And I am the kind of person who will, self-analyze like I will do the hard emotional labor of getting behind where this is coming from, and it was not coming from a place of fear. It was literally coming from a place of emptiness.
Lili Torre: Yeah, exactly.
Jen Waldman: Yeah. So that's how I was able to distinguish it. Now, interestingly, early in the pandemic, there was this incredible episode of Work Life with Adam Grant, where he talked about burnout, and what are the contributing factors and then what are the symptoms and what do you do about it? So highly recommend that anyone listened to that [00:42:00] episode.
And the thing that really resonated with me, and I think probably because this is what I was seeing in a lot of my clients at the time, was lack of efficacy, leading to burnout. Like lack of being able to see that progress was being made, which is one of the reasons why I really pulled back at the end of the year to ask myself what does progress look like?
And that's why 2021 is heading toward much more progress and milestones. But then the other episode that came out, I want to say it was October was Brené Brown's incredible episode on completing the stress cycle with the authors of Burnout.
And they talk about burnout from a different perspective than Adam Grant, but again, provide some really specific suggestions for how to move through it. So having those two resources was super, super helpful.
Lili Torre: Yes. It's so funny. You brought those two up. Those [00:43:00] two podcast episodes resonated with me so strongly as well. Like especially, the Work Life one, when you mentioned it I could picture where I was when I heard it. Like, it was so impactful to me, but the Brené Brown one, like that hit me on a very, like, like emotional, like relatable level. Like, I felt that one so much because that's what Brené Brown does.
Jen Waldman: Yes she does.
Lili Torre: Yeah, thank you for, for kind of talking through that, because for me, I think when I'm in the dip, I'm so focused on getting out and getting to like keeping going and figuring out how I'm going to get out of this that I don't necessarily take stock of truly, like, what am I feeling right now? What does this feel like?
Like it's uncomfortable and I don't like it. So like, what am I feeling? Because then, you're right, it's so much easier if you've taken stock of that. If you take that data, then when burnout is approaching or something that's maybe, maybe not a dip is approaching, [00:44:00] you have something to compare it to.
And yes, I think feeling a lack of impact, the lack of efficacy in your work certainly is a contributing factor. And yeah, I think, you know, right at the beginning, you talked about giving yourself... you're you're hoping for 2021 to be able to give yourself more changes in scenery. And I think for me, I definitely felt that that was contributing to my burnout was being in my very same, very small apartment going on my very same walk to beautiful Astoria Park. But I just like, I couldn't do that walk again. I got to the point where I was like, I can't look at this anymore, which is sad because it's beautiful.
And so for me, that's when I decided that I was going to go on a walk to a new coffee shop every day in Astoria. And what it did for my burnout was night and day. I was seeing new areas of my section of New York that I had never even seen before. I [00:45:00] was seeing new sites, hearing new sounds, literally tasting new things, like a new cup of coffee from a different place I'd never been to. And it absolutely rejuvenated me.
And honestly, it got me to the head space where I was like, okay, I'm ready for this move to Kansas City. And like for this new scenery and to like close this chapter of, you know, 2020, and potentially my life in Astoria and it really lit that spark again for me.
Jen Waldman: Oh my gosh. I just had a brain explosion.
So one of the things that has been coming into my orbit recently is recognizing the ways where we can take these very specific acting exercises or techniques or methods and apply them to real life. And one of the ways in studio workshop class, or in preparing a role or one of our acting based classes we'll help someone to get unstuck with material they feel is [00:46:00] stale, is to do a sensory exercise.
Like see it, smell it, taste it, touch it, hear it, know it. And when you just described your new routine of finding a new coffee place every day, what you were doing was activating all of these senses, which made something old, new again.
Recently we've been talking about using Laban's eight basic efforts as like life skills. How do you Laban your life? If you were trying to, you know, thrust this task forward, what happens if you float it? And I just wonder for the listeners, if there might be some acting exercises they've used to reinvigorate old material that might actually translate to like reinvigorating your actual life.
Lili Torre: That's awesome. I love that. I feel like that's such a, a rhyme with the idea of like exposing your skills. It's like [00:47:00] one of, one of your skills is, you know all of these acting exercises. So like try applying them in the way you wash the dishes or where are you go on your walk in the morning. I love that.
Jen Waldman: Expose those skills friends.
Lili Torre: Jen, thank you so much for taking some time to be back on TDQ. When, when I emailed you about this, I said it and I meant it: it is not a season of TDQ without Jen Waldman. And this was such a joy.
I am certainly very grateful to you in 2020, and I'm so excited to see all of these amazing things that are being implemented at the studio in 2021.
Jen Waldman: Thank you so much for having me, Lili. I appreciate it.
Lili Torre: Having a conversation with Jen Waldman is like weaving together a beautiful tapestry of aha moments. I'm always surprised by the things that come up when we chat and I always leave our conversations feeling curious, inspired, and full of possibility.
What she's done with JWS Online [00:48:00] in 2020 is one of the most incredible examples of leadership and innovation I've ever seen, and it sounds like 2021 will be an equally big year for the studio.
Every time Jen is on TDQ the show notes are chock full of incredible resources, so make sure you scroll down to the show notes to check them out, especially if you want to learn more about JWS Online. Trust me, it's something you want to be a part of, and it's a place that will help you fulfill any new year's resolution.
I hope 2021 is filling you with hope, inspiration and creativity, not to mention health and safety. I'm excited for another year of TDQ, and I'm so grateful that you're along for the ride. I'm Lili Torre and this has been The Dreaded Question.