Lili welcomes Sari Weinerman, creator of the Make It Work workshop. They discuss how Sari has found fulfillment in her Thrival job, what led Sari to create Make It Work, and details about the workshop itself.
Make It Work website
Make It Work sign up link (The tuition of the next 2 people who sign up will be donated to The National Black Worker Center Project, simply put NBWCP as the answer to the question "How did you hear about Make It Work?")
Make It Work FREE introductory workbook
The National Black Worker Center Project website
Sari's website
Sari's instagram: @sariw824
The Jen Waldman Studio
Peter Shepherd
Carly Valancy’s Reach Out Party
TDQ’s Website
Instagram: @thedreadedquestion
Lili’s instagram: @lili_torre
Email: thedreadedquestionpodcast@gmail.com
TDQ Sari Weinerman
Lili Torre: [00:00:00] Hello listeners. And welcome back to The Dreaded Question podcast. I'm your host, Lili Torre, and I'm so excited about today's episode.
Today, I'm speaking to Sari Weinerman about the new course she's created under the TDQ umbrella, Make It Work. As we discuss in today's episode, Sari and I got to know each other in the big ideas lab, which was a course taught at the Jen Waldman studio by Jen Waldman and Peter Shepherd.
I knew that Sari had some change making ideas. And just a few weeks ago, she approached me with the idea for the Make It Work workshop. She was mainly asking for my feedback, but got more than she bargained for when I asked her to offer the class as part of TDQ.
You'll learn more about the workshop in today's episode, and if you're interested in signing up, I'm including all the information that you need below in the show notes. And the full tuition of the next two people who sign up will be donated to the National Black Worker Center Project.
Their signature national campaign is the Working While Black Initiative. This initiative is changing the narrative about the causes of the black job crisis and the potential solutions by sharing the stories of black workers to project a nuanced view of the challenges they face and how to address these challenges through individual efforts and collective action. When you sign up, simply put NBWCP as the answer to the question, "How did you hear about Make It Work?"
So now, here's Sari Weinerman's answer to the dreaded question.
So Sari, Weinerman. What are you up to?
Sari Weinerman: [00:01:37] I am so excited to answer this question,
Lili Torre: [00:01:41] That's so nice to hear.
Sari Weinerman: [00:01:43] you know, actually, before I do answer, I should say that every episode that I listen to of TDQ, I take like a few seconds to imagine what my answer would be.
Lili Torre: [00:01:53] I love that.
Sari Weinerman: [00:01:54] And I definitely think like the dread is there a lot and often I'm like, 'Oh no, today my answer would be less confident', but in this moment I can say I am up to a lot of exploring and balancing.
Lili Torre: [00:02:12] exploring and balancing. Ooh, tell me more.
Sari Weinerman: [00:02:18] So I think this time right now for everyone, is a lot and something I've wanted to make sure I do is continue learning and growing and making sure that I come out of this with, I say, I think I've for myself, I want like a tangible, measurable sort of thing that I can say I've come out of this with.
I think that in normal circumstances, I always want that too in conjunction with auditioning, but without having the auditioning, I don't want to say distraction, but it, without the auditioning factor taking up so much time, I was like really concerned with this being a fruitful time.
Lili Torre: [00:03:04] totally. I think auditioning gives us, sometimes a false sense of control and productivity being like I did something today. And especially if it's not used with intention, I think it can actually be kind of a hiding place if you're spending a lot of time auditioning for things that you don't necessarily want to be a part of.
Sari Weinerman: [00:03:29] Oh man. Yeah.
Lili Torre: [00:03:30] Then, yeah, it's just a way to feel like you did something and you contributed to your career and now you don't have to do anything else cause you don't have time.
(laughs) Yeah, I've been saying, it feels like without actually being able to go to an audition that it feels like Sari Weinerman: [00:03:46] I've been given permission. To focus elsewhere. Whereas I think I've always wanted that I've always wanted to be having my hat in a few different rings, but it felt like there was FOMO or, you know, they would really, is.
It felt like there was FOMO. If I wasn't spending, you know, at least a chunk of my day doing something towards that auditioning output.
Lili Torre: [00:04:11] Right. No, I mean, I think a lot of people can probably relate to that, but I also know that for you even pre pandemic, you were somebody who has a thrival job and who does spend a good portion of your time doing work that is, at the very least, interesting to you, if not also meaningful and wonderful. So I'd love to hear more about your thrival job.
Sari Weinerman: [00:04:37] Yeah, well, so, I mean, this is something that pretty early on, I got clear on needing to have work that felt, both contributory like outside of myself and also, gave me fulfillment, challenged me. you know, I, I did. That thing in the very beginning of when I, you know, went to the city and was auditioning where I would do some temp jobs and babysit and worked for this event company, which is , sort of like catering, just not with food, but I was putting together just all of these different things and the biggest through line that I felt through all of it was that I just didn't feel like there was purpose behind it. And I didn't feel like there was growth.
Lili Torre: [00:05:26] Yeah.
Sari Weinerman: [00:05:27] Yeah. And so I really just started trying to explore ways that I could just add honestly, experience to what my interests already were and even what I was maybe just good at already. And the first thing that happened, actually, I had a roommate who had this amazing opportunity where she worked remotely. And this is already, I mean, we're going back like five years now. And she was also auditioning, but I got to watch firsthand how she made her own hours and she was actually intellectually stimulated by this project that she was working on. And I was like that, that is my goal. I have to make that happen. And I started talking to my friends about it. And my other friend who actually then moved into that apartment. she's one of my best friends and she had a personal connection that needed just somebody to do a little bit of online work, just a little bit of remote work.
It was truly uploading content to the backend of a website for two hours a week.
And I was like, All right , I'll just add that to the six other jobs that I have. that'll be a cool introduction into, you know, that type of world. And so I started with that and as I had spent a little time doing that, I was like, this is what I want more of.
And the next thing I came across was literally on Audition Update,
Lili Torre: [00:06:58] Wow.
Sari Weinerman: [00:07:00] truly it was in. I don't know it was the older site. So I'm forgetting the names of each page, but it was one of the other pages and this woman who was previously an actor, so she knew she was looking for an actor. She wanted somebody in that space, needed a virtual assistant and she truly posted it on Audition Update
Lili Torre: [00:07:25] of all places.
Sari Weinerman: [00:07:26] all places like the place that I forbid myself to even look for awhile.
Lili Torre: [00:07:31] Yeah. Right.
Sari Weinerman: [00:07:32] Right. And I found her and I reached out and because of the experience that I had had with this other two hour a week job, she was like, you know, I think you're going to be a great fit. And I became her virtual assistant.
And so I learned just so much about operating a business online and blogging and social media and. She gave me just the greatest opportunity. Her name is Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez. and she has a, personal finance blog and company, and she truly built it all off of her own experience. And she's, she's really awesome.
And so I, through her just started learning all of these things and. I ended up getting another opportunity that I found through Playbill.com that needed sort of a social media-esque type of person. And because of my experience with her, I was able to get that job. And then a little while later, she ended up referring me to somebody else that she knew, because she was sort of like.
You know, "I'm downsizing a bit, what I'm going to outsource. And so I'm not sure I have enough hours for you." And she ended up leading me to another person, The Budget Savvy Bride, who I still get to do stuff for. So if you're getting married, check her out. but then that led me there. And so all of a sudden I had garnered all of this really great experience.
Just from that one little thing that spurred everything else and now cut to, I continued growing with that initial two hour a week job, and now it's 30 plus hours a week and I am the Director of content marketing.
Lili Torre: [00:09:10] Fancy!
Sari Weinerman: [00:09:11] Yeah, right? It just, it really, it grew and it's continuing to grow even right now.
I mean, a lot of our work that we do is concentrated in the digital space. And so when all of this hit, we were able to continue working and, yeah.
Lili Torre: [00:09:30] That's amazing. I mean, it sounds like a lot of serendipity, but it also sounds like a lot of saying yes to the right things and sort of chasing your interests and following, you know, what it was that piqued your interest and something that I'm realizing from something you sort of said casually about how you had all these disparate survival jobs and none of them really had any purpose is I'm kind of having an aha moment here that the purpose of a survival job is survival.
It's literally in the name. That's all that it is. There's no real room for any other deeper meaning or purpose that we might have
Sari Weinerman: [00:10:15] Wow.
Lili Torre: [00:10:16] Because all we're thinking about it as is survival. That's all that it's meant to be for us, which is just like your most baseline. Like it's just not enough. so I love that you were able to recognize the lifestyle that you wanted and that you saw a path to get there and therefore were able to recognize the opportunities when they presented themselves.
And then of course, through a lot of hard work and doing a good job, and I'm sure, you know, being open to learning new things, you were able to get to a place where now you have, almost a full time job. And even in the midst of a global pandemic!
Sari Weinerman: [00:10:57] Right. I mean, I think that I really adopted this sort of framework around it. That growth is additive and not linear. And I think that that's like the biggest piece of advice that I always even offer. Just, you know, other friends of mine, other actors, other performers, is that often it feels like if we place an end goal out there, the steps there won't illuminate.
And from my personal experience, it was truly just like, jumping from one stone to the next stone that eventually led to where I am now. And you're right. It was really this "Yes and" attitude. It was also, I really did want to learn. I really wanted to be able to have like an expanded toolkit. I wanted to be able to build really, essentially a parallel career. Eventually. I didn't know what that necessarily might be or what it would turn out to be. And I think quite honestly, I am still figuring that out, but the sense of thriving through these thrival jobs while going on this journey to figure it out has been the best thing that I could have ever hoped for.
Lili Torre: [00:12:10] Yes. I love the way that you're talking about this because. Thrival jobs can be a little bit hard to sort of put your finger on or define, and sometimes I get questions about like, "Okay. So what's what exactly is the difference between a survival job and a thrival job?" Or "What exactly is the difference between a thrival job and a parallel career?"
And oftentimes when I talk about thrival jobs, I show it as a Venn diagram. Where survival job is on one side and parallel careers on the other. And the thrival job is, you know, the center of that Venn diagram. And, you know, I think you're such a good example of someone who has found a thrival job for herself, because, you know, you realized that survival wasn't enough that you needed more than that, but you weren't, you know, you didn't have an idea, you weren't clear on like, but this is what I want my parallel career to be.
So in the meantime you found something that offered you the flexibility that you needed and also provided you with new skills opportunities for learning and growth and where you were able to kind of chase the things that did interest you to see if those were potential paths that could, like you said, be additive and add up to something that could eventually become a parallel career for you.
Sari Weinerman: [00:13:31] Yeah, absolutely.
Lili Torre: [00:13:33] I think that's awesome. And I, I hope that through hearing your story, that other people are getting a greater sense of what a thrival job might look like.
And so then I would love to know what led you to start thinking about creating something to help other artists find thrival jobs? Because for those who are listening, Sari ended up reaching out to me wanting to kind of thrash with me on an idea that she had for something she wanted to create for artists.
And. Because I knew that Sari is a creative genius and we had taken Big Ideas Lab together, I of course said, yes, let's talk. And she shared this idea with me. And I was like, not only is this something that I think people need, it's something that I want to help you offer to people. So that is how Make It Work, came to be part of the TDQ umbrella.
But I'm curious about what encouraged you to even create the idea of Make It Work to begin with.
Sari Weinerman: [00:14:42] Yeah. So it all feels kind of serendipitous right now, to be honest. but this job that I have been talking about this thrival job that started truly at two hours a week, is for a workforce training and consulting organization. And honestly like in the workforce sphere, everyone is always like, nobody even knows what workforce means, but in my attempt to sort of explain it, my company, they.
Work with places like let's say Goodwill or, the workforce development center of insert city here. And they provide training that the case managers and the hiring managers at those places can use to then match job seekers with employment. So the whole basis of the type of content that I am pushing out that I'm researching, that I am even talking about at all, is all in this sphere of workforce development.
And at the very heart of that, it's breaking down what skills workers have, what training they may need, and then what kind of work can they pursue from there. And so for a while, All of the things that I was concentrating on, you know, to push out on social media for my company to, we also produce podcasts for workforce organizations.
So a lot of the content that I'm helping these organizations create is how they can serve their job seekers, who need to learn, you know, how to write their resume, how to write a cover letter, how to seek out training options. This is all the stuff that I was day in and day out dealing with. And I started to just kind of collect some of these resources because sometimes I would have friends of mine who would ask, you know, most specifically, they didn't know what my job necessarily was, but they knew that I could show up to an audition and say, Oh yeah, I just did two hours of work in my apartment.
I have my computer with me. I'm going to do a little more now. And then I'm going to go finish later. And that flexibility is something I think a lot of performers are craving and a lot of them would ask me, you know, like how do I even go about finding something like that? And so I just started.
Keeping this running tab of a lot of the content that I had already allocated just for all of my work stuff. even just on, you know, finding jobs or interviewing best practices, lots of stuff like that. And also mind you, I am also working with organizations that are pushing this exact stuff out on their podcasts.
So it's sort of. All of what I focus on. And I started to realize, you know, I am sitting on a lot of these resources that so many people around me could use and having the unique perspective as a performer myself, it just sort of felt like how could I not share it from the perspective that I have?
And as you mentioned, I mean, we met in, well, we did meet before this, but we did take the Big Ideas Lab together. and. Truly being in that space. I mean, I think JWS in general awakens you to this, but realizing how many other artists there are that are not getting to use the full potential of their minds and their skills and their training and even their aspirations.
I was just so struck by how much it feels like it's wasted and. What if I could somehow help match people to open employment? Because mean, as I've sort of illuminated, I have had a passion for just kind of saying yes for just adding experience. And I think having, myself gone through this journey of just sort of adding experiences, I would look at a lot of friends and even for them, some of them had ideas of parallel careers they wanted, and I instantly sort of felt like I could see a through line of how they could potentially get there.
I could see like these stepping stones that they could potentially take to achieve that parallel career that I think they eventually want. but to me, like the career, the big picture wasn't as clear as what those steps towards it could be.
Lili Torre: [00:18:55] Right. So essentially what the company that you work for does is identify, knowledge gaps, or skill gaps that people have. Between basically them and a job that they want and helps them fill those gaps?
Sari Weinerman: [00:19:13] Yes, that is one aspect. again, it's a little hard to explain, but my company doesn't directly interface with any job seekers, my company interfaces with the people that are helping job seekers.
Lili Torre: [00:19:25] Got it.
Sari Weinerman: [00:19:25] But also what my company is sort of on the pulse of always is just the state of the workforce.
You know, the job market, what people are hiring, what hiring needs might be, ways employers might need to adapt ways that even job seekers may end up having to adapt in order to fit the current needs of the job market.
Lili Torre: [00:19:47] Right. Which I imagine in this time there must just be so much that y'all are talking about and so many needs that are changing and skills that are highly sought after now that maybe weren't before. I can't even imagine.
Sari Weinerman: [00:20:02] Yeah. I mean, I think we were going towards this, like as a society in general. but the pandemic definitely sped up the need for remote work and the need for digital platforms to be successful. And, it's also sort of redefining what a worker looks like now. And I think that completely applies to all of the performers in our community because. whether you can continue to seek work on stage in the near future or not, there is work that can always be had in supplement to it. And that is why I am such a big fan of TDQ and the whole idea of Doing It Also. And just the idea that as actors, we can do more than just completely schedule our lives so that we can make an audition.
Right? I mean, I think it's, that was like the biggest thing that frustrated me from the start of. You know, the whole professional pursuit of a performing career, because it felt like there was so much time that I wasn't doing other things just because I was trying to do this one thing and on a bigger level, I think if we can imagine as a community of artists, the ability to put all of our skills and our empathy and our innovation and our heart into other places, while we still perform and share those gifts with the world. I mean, that's, that would be the ultimate goal.
Lili Torre: [00:21:30] Yes, where we don't feel like we have to, you know, shut off all those skills and that those skills have no place in our day job, if you will, where they can actually continue to be an asset even outside of our theatrical career. Yes. I am fully in support of that mission.
So it sounds like your thrival job and everything that you've learned there as it may or may not be starting to edge more into parallel career territory has taught you a lot of things and shown you a lot of things and helped you realize what's keeping artists from making that leap from the sort of expected survival jobs of babysitting and restaurants, et cetera, into a sort of uncharted territory of thrival jobs.
So I'm curious to know what made you decide that this was the time to create, Make It Work.
Sari Weinerman: [00:22:28] That is a great question. I think it's honestly that I had so many friends colleagues, personal connections that we're all feeling. I don't want to say lost because I don't want to imply that without theater. There's no center. I think that as theater makers, there is more that we're preoccupied with in general than just the actual act of being on stage.
But I do think that, I mean, most of the people that I knew had a babysitting or serving job, and that was no more, and. Also, I think there was this collective almost anxiety about, you know, what is, what does theater look like after this? And it's already a space where it feels like getting a job, like just getting employment is so hard.
And what if we had jobs and employment elsewhere that we could do at the same time? So then we do have the freedom to still pursue performing and theater making. And even what we're seeing now, social justice having the actual bandwidth to really pay attention and do the work. I think the biggest thing that you sort of feel in holding rooms, you know, you talk about this desperation all the time and it's everyone chasing these scarce jobs.
And that becomes the circle and the center of everything we worry about. And, it really does feel like it wastes potential and it wastes contribution I mean, I've heard you say it on some of these episodes, but now feels like a time where I, I'm not gonna say it as well as you did, but you had said it.
I remember like I can picture myself walking and listening to that episode, but like, this is a time where we can recreate what our circumstances are like, we can recreate the rules of theater. We can come back to something different. We don't have to return to this quote, unquote normal. And even just hearing that, I was like, Oh, this is really, this is the time to get more people on board with the, Doing It Also mentality.
Lili Torre: [00:24:44] Yes. I understand what you're saying about not wanting to say that people feel lost cause they can't call themselves actors right now, but there are a lot of people for whom that is such a big part of their identity.
And for a lot of those people, part of being an actor is being a server or, you know, whatever the survival job is because that's part of what actors do in their mind.
That's the story that we tell each other about actors. So, you know, I think that in some ways I imagine that you're right, that there are a lot of people feeling really lost right now. And I think helping people find something else That's more in alignment with a true purpose that they have. And more meaningful work is a great mission in this time.
So I'm just so excited that you brought the idea for Make It Work to me because, obviously I am, as we're recording this in the midst of teaching, the Doing It Also workshop, which has been so amazing, the people involved in this class are just like, I can't even tell you incredible. And so I kind of had to sit with this idea and ask myself, okay, what's the difference between Make It Work and Doing It Also.
And. Actually, I think I'd like to hear you tackle that first and I'll jump in if there's anything else I want to add.
Sari Weinerman: [00:26:10] Okay. so you gave me this language to sort of thinking about it in, but, It feels like Make It Work is the bridge to "Parallel Career Island". And it feels like Make It Work is more centered in what can we do at this very moment? What are the things that we can do that will allow us to grow professionally will allow us to grow the skills and training that we have in the experience that we have immediately? What are the things that the skills that we have right now can combine with a potential opportunity that maybe excites us. And I think doing it also is, you know, I've found what my purpose is. I found this other parallel purpose. And then you could backtrack and Make It Work, would provide you with the resources for finding the steps to get to that eventual parallel career.
Lili Torre: [00:27:12] exactly. Exactly. Yes. I love this image of kind of the bridge between two islands that, you know, for some people who figure out what they want their parallel career to be. Parallel career Island might be very close. It could be just a hop away and you can easily get from where you are to your parallel career.
And it's, you know, not that big of a slog and you really make it, make it work. I was just gonna say that's funny. but for other people, parallel career Island may be a few steps off. And so, you know, one can either swim. To parallel career Island. And maybe you feel a little bit like you're drowning and maybe struggle a little bit on the way there, or they can take the bridge of a thrival job that supplies you with the training or domain knowledge or whatever it is that you need to support you.
Once you get to parallel career Island. And I think. what's so wonderful about Make It Work right now is, it's no secret that unemployment will be ending for a lot of people soon. It'd be great if that continued, but we have no way of knowing if that will happen right now. So right now I really do think that we all need to operate under the assumption that unemployment will be coming to an end at the end of July, and really start thinking about, you know, what are our opportunities?
What do we have to offer? How can we not just default to the most. Available, basic thing. How can we find something to support ourselves that has at least a certain degree, a certain level of intention, a certain level of passion?
Sari Weinerman: [00:28:58] And beyond the passion. I think these sort of thrival jobs to me are. They have like sprouts that go into other potential opportunities. I think that once you get more of that, experience, it could lead you somewhere else. And you might not know right now where that will be, but doing something, doing something that expands your experience and your skillset and your abilities will then open up just more opportunity in the future.
Lili Torre: [00:29:32] absolutely.
Sari Weinerman: [00:29:33] And Something also, that I see so much because of the work that I'm doing in workforce development is that right now, like there is work to be had. There are people hiring, there are shifts being made in, company structures in business needs and so much.
And that is why we don't have to feel like, Oh, unemployment's ending. And I have no options because there actually are people looking. There's people hiring and performers innately have so many skills that are needed. Right now in the face of all that is going on. And that is also what Make It Work is dedicated to doing is helping you realize what skills you do already innately have and how and why they are valuable and immediately applicable to paid work right now.
Lili Torre: [00:30:25] Yes. So, I guess my question is who is make it work for ?
Sari Weinerman: [00:30:31] well, okay. So I would say definitely, as you mentioned, anybody who is dreading that their unemployment is about to run out at the end of next month. I would also say anybody who has sort of felt trapped by, what have become the typical actor, survival jobs.
I think anybody who has experienced as part of our current circumstances, the thought that they may want to pursue something else or something in addition to performing, but really don't know what that is. and I think some, anybody who just feels like they know that they have some sort of interest or potential or something that's been underlying, you know, their path thus far, and they're sort of ready to uncover what just a next step could be.
Lili Torre: [00:31:27] yes. I feel like another way to maybe look at it would be either someone who feels that they're not ready for a parallel career, but knows that they're done with the survival job or maybe someone who knows what they want their parallel career to be. They already have the idea, but They feel like there are steps to get there that they need help with and maybe some skill gaps or knowledge gaps that they're looking to fill
Sari Weinerman: [00:31:55] Exactly.
Lili Torre: [00:31:56] that a thrival job could maybe help them with.
So, Sari, do you just want to fill us in a little bit on what the class is going to look like?
Sari Weinerman: [00:32:04] Sure. so similar to doing it also, it's going to be a four week workshop. all of the classes are on Zoom for an hour. It's going to be each Thursday between July 9th and July 30th from 6:00 to 7:00 PM. The course also has a digital ebook that will go along with it. So there are worksheets, there are handouts.
There are, you know, tangible resources that we will discuss. And, by the end of the course, by week four, you will be able to, at the very least apply for one job. Or you will be able to have mapped out the exact course of action you need to take in order to be job ready as soon as possible.
Lili Torre: [00:32:55] Yes. I love that. This sounds like such an amazing course, and I can think of so many people who would absolutely love this. So I'm really, really excited for everyone who's going to be involved in it.
So, Sari if there's anyone listening to this who thinks that Make It Work sounds great, but they're just not sure that they're ready or they feel overwhelmed. What would you say to them?
Sari Weinerman: [00:33:21] I would say. First to contact us to get the six page, free introduction to the course, this will give them more information. And I think a little bit more clarity on exactly how it will work.
But what I would also say is I said it earlier and I'm going to say it again. It's becoming my mantra. That growth does not have to be linear, it just has to be additive. And so if we can get into the practice of just making moves, if we can keep ourselves in motion, we don't know what could come of it. The opportunities become endless and we deserve to have that, especially after spending so much time, in. Pursuing something that is so out of our control, that doesn't have a measure of, you know, linear, secession, but we do have so many unique, special abilities and interests. And it's really just about us knowing what is out there for us to take advantage of.
Lili Torre: [00:34:31] Yeah. I feel like you're ready. People you're ready to not be in a survival job.
Sari Weinerman: [00:34:37] You've been ready the whole time. Yeah.
Lili Torre: [00:34:39] Yeah, Sari, thank you so much for taking some time to unpack, Make It Work for us and to share this very big, very wonderful idea. I also just want to say again for people listening that, you know, this is just another great example of the power of reaching out and, you know, I know I've had Carly Valancy on the show before talking about how amazing reaching out is, and she's absolutely right.
I mean, both for you as the person who reached out, but equally so for me, as the person who has reached out to, this idea is so amazing. And I'm so excited to be part of sharing this with people. And so it just serves as a constant reminder that reaching out truly is a generous gift. And I'm so grateful that you reached out to me about it.
Sari Weinerman: [00:35:29] I am so grateful too.
Lili Torre: [00:35:32] As you can probably tell, I'm very excited about the Make It Work workshop. It feels like the perfect compliment to Doing It Also. And it's also incredibly relevant to the needs of our community right now. I hope that if you have any remaining questions about the workshop, that you'll reach out to me at thedreadedquestionpodcast@gmail.com so that Sari and I can answer your questions.
Remember, the full tuition of the next two people who sign up will be donated to the National Black Worker Center Project. So hop on it!
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I hope that wherever you are, you are safe and well. I'm Lili Torre and this has been The Dreaded Question.